Posted by Mike O on: 05.24.2007 /
NOTE - I had a lot of trouble putting this into words, so it may not make sense. I hope it does.
In Siamang’s post earlier this week, What are we first, he talked about how people online see him primarily as an atheist, but in reality he’s *not* an atheist first. He’s a person/father/husband/etc first and atheist comes farther down the line.
But all three Christians who posted listed “Christian” or “Jesus Follower” first, and other things followed that.
That got me to thinking … are either of those priorities so wrong?
To me, it seems completely reasonable for a Jesus follower to list their relationship with Christ first. After all, if Jesus tells us to put God first, and we don’t, it seems like it would result in a weak or ineffective Christianity.
On the other hand, if an atheist listed ‘atheist’ first, that would come across as somehow out of balance. It seems like an atheist *should be* person/father/husband first, followed by atheist.
I just went back and added “student of people” to my list of things that I am, because these kinds of things interest me. But is it possible that part of the natural conflict between atheists and Christians (other than the obvious difference in beliefs) is this natural difference in priorities? Could it be that we Christians project our priorities upon atheists (god is lower than he should be) so we perceive atheists as anti-God? Could it be that atheists project their priorities upon Christians (god is higher than he should be) so they perceive us as militant?
I suppose neither stereotype is entirely false (many Christians are militant … many atheists are anti-god). But I wonder if it’s not really just a problem of projected priorities. I suspect that atheists would like Christians better if God wasn’t so important to us — but he is! And I suspect Christians would like atheists better if God was more important to them — but he isn’t.
And given what we believe, maybe we just need to understand that. God *should be* first to me, or I would be an out-of-balance Christian. Atheism *should not be* first to an atheist, or you would be an out-of-balance atheist.
Comment by: Siamang
1It took me by surprise that every Christian listed Christian (or Christ-follower) first.
In retrospect, I guess it shouldn’t be surprising to me, but it nevertheless was.
So I think you might be right on with that projection idea.
Comment by: Mike O
2Yeah, I had the same initial reaction when I saw how low atheism was on your list. But in retrospect, it makes sense to me.
Comment by: Stephan
3For me, my faith influences all of the lower things on the list. I am a different kind of father, husband, brother, son, etc., because of my life in Christ.
Comment by: Mike O
4And maybe that’s 1/2 the point?
Without faith, it makes sense that those other things would top the atheist list. And with faith, it makes sense that they follow.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
5Thanks Mike. This is a very interesting point.
Comment by: Karen
6I was not surprised to see that dichotomy because I remember being taught to list my priorities following the J-O-Y model:
1) Jesus
2) Others
3) Yourself
So, you were to put your relationship with Jesus first, i.e. at the “center of your marriage” and make it central to your identity.
Next, you were to sacrifice your own needs, wants, desires for others in Jesus’ name.
Finally, you came last on the priority list because Jesus would supply your needs anyway, while you were busy with 1 and 2.
Comment by: Julie Marie
7lol Karen, even tho’ its not funny - sometimes you have to laugh.
I think thats a real danger for Christian women, in particular - the self sacrifice thing. Then you end up angry and frustrated and not too pleasant to be around. I work with a woman like that right now.
Finding the healthy balance between self sacrifice and self absorption isn’t always easy.
Comment by: Karen
8Yes, that’s very true!
Comment by: Eliza
9This is very interesting. Great observations, Mike O.
It seems that the most of the top several items on everyone’s list were roles involving meaningful interpersonal relationships, loving relationships. (There are also items suggesting good self-confidence - that’s my interpretations - “person”, “woman”.)
I wonder whether people whose top several self-descriptors don’t involve close relationships (or, strong self-confidence) might be more open to considering “accepting” Christ? Maybe there’s more of a gap where he would fit? ….?
I also wonder what people’s lists look like as their beliefs are changing. Does “Christian” appear suddenly at the top of someone’s list; does it ever appear lower down on the list & move up, or at #1 spot then move down?
Related to that, I wonder what a list like this might look like for a child raised in a Christian family. Early on, it would be developmentally normal to have “child of my parents” at the top of the list. When does “Christian” appear on the list? When does it appear in the top spot? Again, is that a sudden thing, or a gradual move?
Would be interested in anyone’s thoughts on any of these questions…
Comment by: Julie Marie
10Interesting question, Eliza. 2 years ago, my response would have been like Bernie’s…my identity is in Christ. And over the past 2 years, I’d still say “Christian” would have been either at the top or near the top of my list. Now I’m not sure what to call myself, so in the interest of not applying a label with a bunch of caveats [Jesus follower except when ____fill in the blank with my pondering du jour] I leave that off. Its not that things spiritual aren’t important to me anymore…I just don’t know how to classify them. Its easier for me to list how my beliefs manifest in my life, rather than identify the source of my beliefs.
My son had a standard Christian upbringing until he was 3 1/2, and he wouldn’t have called himself a Christian yet. I suspect now, at 4 1/2, if we had continued with our former church, he would identify himself as Christian (just under”Mommy’s Big Boy” ;)) There is obviously someone at his day care that has some concrete beliefs they are sharing because Cody comes home with God and Jesus statements freqeuently. And I know its not coming from the teachers. So the kids in his class have begun forming the framework for their worldview, and are sharing it.
Comment by: Mike O
11I’m not 100% sure what you meant by this, but I think you’re going with a “maybe some people *need* God more?” This may be a bit off your point, but one of the biggest obstacles standing between my non-Christian peers and Christ is, in *my* opinion, the fact that they don’t need him. Most of my contacts are in corporate america where the money is typically pretty good. I mean, we’re not rich by any means, but we certainly aren’t “needy.” Why would a person who has money, family, friends and a basically good life by most people’s standards “risk” that to become a follower of Christ? Or to turn it around on myself, why would I ever reject Christ … my life is working just fine with him, why would I risk it without him? There’s no *need* … no motivation for me to change my position. Is that what you were getting at?
A year ago, I would have been sure that there’s always a “decision point” when people accept Christ. And if that were true, to me it seems that Christ would immediately become number one - perhaps with some struggles but that would be their intent.
Now I’m not so sure. That happens, to be sure. But the more time I spend with non-believers, and the more I see people on a path. If they are on a path towards Christ, then it seems to me that Christ/Christianity would “work it’s way up the list rather than a sudden change in priorities. I think it happens both ways. For me, I’ve been a Christian since I was 4, but I did have a “point in time” conversion experience. For me, Christ went from zero to 60 in about 10 minutes. But I don’t know that that’s typical.
I can tell you how I’ve seen it happen in Christian families. The baby is born. Goes to the church nursery, then pre-school, then elementary Sunday School. At some point, everything sort of “clicks” and they “pray the prayer” one night with mommy and/or daddy.
When children make their faith internal, I believe they put (or try to put) him in that first spot. But realistically, a lot of it has to do with how their parents are raising them. If Christ is in the #1 spot for the parents, he will be assumed to be in the #1 spot for the Christian children as well. Both the child and the parents, I think, would just assume that. I don’t think that’s a bad thing - I just think that may be how it works.
And then at some point as the child gets older, they start to really think about what mommy and daddy taught them, and begin questioning it. That happened to me when I was 17. My son was about 17 or 18 when he really started “doing the math” on his faith.
My question would be, how does it work for children in non-Christian homes … how does it work for them when they accept Christ?
Comment by: Mike O
12Back to something I said in my last post … I think a lot of Christians assume Christ is #1 in their life for the simple fact that they accepted him. Or, when asked this question, they will say he’s #1 because that’s the “right” answer.
But my experience has been that it takes a lot of intentionality to keep him in the top spot. Life is SO distracting. Good times distract me. Busy times distract me. Bad times distract me. Heck, even boring times are distracting. I really do think I keep him in the top spot all the time, but sometimes it comes more naturally than others.
And now that I wrote that, I wonder what it sounds like to an atheist. Does that make sense? Does it seem odd?
Comment by: Mike O
13I just happened to read this last night in Hemant’s book, “I Sold my Soul on eBay,” bottom of pg 94.
Hopefully this discussion thread sheds a little light into the Christian mindset. Yes, I would choose Christ over family (not that I have to). I don’t think Hement was reading too much into it - it really is prioritized like that for me. Again, I hope this discussion thread sheds some light into the Christian mindset.
His comparison to parents choosing between their children, however, doesn’t fit. I mean, I see his point because he doesn’t believe in god so I see his point. But if it came down to a choice betwen family and Christ, I know what I would choose. And many Christians who have preceded me would do the same.
In fact, look at this lyric to this Keith Green song from the 1970’s. The whole point of this song was to proclaim his priorities: that God was #1 over everything - even his family.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
14Hi Mike, yes, I’m very familiar with that Keith Green song.
I’m glad I don’t have to deal with the “Jesus is more important than the humans you care most about” teaching any more.
Mostly because it’s so easily subverted by other Christians into “Jesus = X (e.g. church but maybe something else), therefore X (e.g. church but maybe something else) must be more important to you than the humans you care most about or you’re sinning against God”.
Imo it is very wrong when Christians control and manipulate other Christians by saying “this is what Jesus is #1 should mean in YOUR life”.
I think it happens a lot.
Comment by: Mike O
15Amen to that, sistuh! I agree that when religion is put above family, etc., that wouldn’t be right. Religion is man’s imposition upon other people of what they think God wants. I can’t control that. All I can control is what I think God wants ME to do with MY life.
One thing I noticed about the bible is that it doesn’t tell ME how YOU should live YOUR life. It tells ME how I should live MY life.
I should forgive.
I should love others.
I should be generous.
I should not judge.
But where is the verse that tells me that YOU have to forgive me? … or that YOU have to love me or that YOU should be generous or that YOU shouldn’t judge me? I don’t think you’ll find it.
This is why I react so strongly to topics like how other churches handle their money, etc. It’s not my place to tell them what God wants them to do with what he has called them to do. To me, that’s the same thing you just said … Jesus = X, therefore X must be what you’re supposed to do with your money. It’s very easily subverted.
So I agree with what you’re saying, but still I want my life run by that guideline. Whatever I do, my first priority is to God, not my wife or my son. Thankfully, in my case they’re not mutually exclusive.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
16Thanks Mike - yes, I think things work much better when people apply what they see in the Bible to themselves - it’s the speck/log in the eye thing again.
And I think it’s good not to have a knee-jerk reaction when Christians say they put God first but to be curious and see what that means in practice - just like it’s good to see what atheists are doing in practice.
Probably if you go to a movie theater you will find an atheist family sitting next to a Christian family - if you could know their beliefs/non-beliefs - watching the latest movie Siamang has helped create :). In practice people who describe their values differently or in a different order might end up with very similar priorities regarding (for example) their immediate families.
Comment by: Eliza
17Thanks for your comments, Mike O. Going back up to your response in #11:
I was indeed thinking, maybe some people “need” God more - I was actually thinking of some of the people we admit to the hospital, people whose lives & health are in shambles from self-destructive habits (mostly drugs or alcohol) but who continue to act as if acquisition/use of those substances are more important to them than their health, lives, relationships, homes, and self-esteem. People who steal or prostitute themselves to pay for their habit, & who use dirty needles to inject dirty drugs, come to the hospital with infections, which only get partially treated because they leave to get back to using.
Obviously, I’m not saying this is what Christians are like! It’s possible, we might agree that some of these people need Christ - in my case, I see religion (esp. Christianity) as a route for “hope and redemption” (the topic of a discussion here last year) that non-religious approaches really can’t offer (short of providing plentiful resources for people to more easily access rehab & well-paying jobs, I suppose). I’m thinking of the top several items on many of these people’s list being things other than loving relationships (including with self - self-esteem).
Reading your responses, I’m thinking that one difference is that I look at it as people open to accepting Christ (a.C.) as having a gap or hole in their list/lives - and those not open as having no gap or hole needing filling.
Whereas (correct me if I’m wrong) you & other Christians may be seeing those of us not open to a.C. as being distracted & falsely feeling fulfilled by other considerations, not even realizing there’s a huge gap in our lives/lists, at the top (but maybe also all throughout?).
I actually was not thinking that people who have comfortable lives might be deterred from a.C. by the chance they could be risking the comfort of their lives. (But maybe there are people for whom that’s true..?)
You also said,
As to this, no I wasn’t trying to suggest that there’s no need, no motivation to change your position & that’s why you still a.C. If I were to guess, I’d figure that your position remains stable because you believe. (Wouldn’t it be horribly presumptuous of me to think or suggest anything else??)
Comment by: Eliza
18Mike O, what would it look like to put Christ above & before one’s spouse & child/children, as top priority? Can you give some examples of situation(s) which would present this choice for a Christian (or Jesus-follower)?
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
19Eliza wrote:
That’s exactly what some Christians think about people who aren’t Christians.
Some Christians also believe God needs to reveal the gap - that people are not able to see it without God’s help.
(Even so they still go to hell if they don’t see it, according to those Christians - I never understood that part)
Comment by: Mike O
20Eliza, you said
I would agree that that’s accurate, at least for me.
I don’t think there are any realistic examples today. But one example might be, let’s say my wife wants me to do something that is contrary to what I think Christ would want me to do. I wouldn’t do it.
Here’s one thing it’s not … it’s not me making my wife and son conform to my beliefs under threat of divorce or disownment. If my wife and son ever lost their faith and became atheists, I would not leave them. I love them no matter what they decide or do. So I would never use my personal priorities to make them be (pretend to be??) something I require. That is what religion is, and my religion is not high on my list. In fact (and I’ve never thought of this before) it might rank right about where atheism would rank on your priorities. It’s in there, but not at the top.
What it would look like, however, would be more if I had to choose between them. If, for example, my wife or son came to me and said “Choose! Me or Christ.” I would choose Christ.
It’s hard to give any realistic example because I really don’t think there is one today. One thing I would say, though, is that if I ever did have to make a choice like that, it would have to be forced by some person other than myself. I don’t believe Christ/Christianity/the Bible/God/etc ever makes people choose like that. And I know I would never willingly choose between them.
No, if I had to choose, it would have to be some forced situation from an outside party. And in that case, I would choose Christ.
Comment by: Eliza
21Thanks - the discussion of the different views of the “lists” or rankings rates as one of the “Aha!” moments here for me. Very, very useful!