Posted by Mike O on: 06.14.2007 /
I try to read my Bible every day. And this year, in an effort to do things a little different, I decided to read the entire new testament in 30 days. And in case you don’t know … that’s pretty fast. I’ve done this before and the benefit I get from it is that when you “read it like a book,” it reads different than when you actually study it and dig into the deeper meanings. For example, many of the books of the new testament are actually letters written from someone, to someone. So rather than dig out all the deeper meanings, I try to read it like a letter … Paul, for example, sat in a jail cell one day and wrote a letter to a (the only?) church in Phillipi. And when he wrote it, I’m sure he didn’t spend weeks analyzing every phrase and innuendo because it was going into a Bible … he just wrote them a letter. It’s actually quite interesting to see the different angles and perspectives that come out by simply reading it faster.
Anyway, about two months ago, I got to 1 John (towards the end of the New Testament). It’s only a couple of pages long, so I figured I’d just blow through it before I left for work in the morning. And I did. But then this thought occurred to me - “What an odd letter for someone to write.”
I mean, someone (John the apostle) actually sat down and took the time to write this letter to a group of people, and the topic of the letter was how to know who is and who isn’t a Christian (sort of). What motivated that?
So I read the introduction (my Bible has introductions to each book, explaining the history, background, key verses, etc) and it said that gnosticism was prevalant at that time and this letter was in response to gnostic influences that were creeping into the church.
Hmm. Interesting.
It also struck me how simple the message was … Here’s how you know who to believe. Here’s how you know what to believe. Here’s how you know who loves God. Here’s how you’ll behave if you love God. It’s really quite basic.
It’s not a convincing argument for Christianity, by any means. But then again it wasn’t meant to be. It’s just a letter one Christian wrote to some other Christians telling them what being a Christian should look like. But looking at it from an atheistic perspective (hey, I can pretend!) maybe it provides a few bullet points into how Christians tick … or at least how they should tick … and it’s not that complicated.
Obey God. Love people. Believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
Like I said at the beginning, this was two months ago. I was so struck by the simplicity and clarity of this letter that I read it again. And again. And then I got sucked into studying it. And here I am, two months later, just now nearing the end (it’s only about 4 pages long!) and I’m absolutely engrossed by the simplicity of the message.
If Christians lived by this simple letter, I think we’d get it right and our lives here on earth would be what God intended for them to be. No, this won’t convert any atheists. But when judging Christians, I think 1 John is a good measure to use. It’s a good overview of what the Bible says a Christian should be like.
Is it all-inclusive? No, I don’t think so. But I do think it’s Christianity 101.
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Comment by: Ir (Helen)
1 06/14/07 6:57 PM | Comment Link |I like this part of 1 John (chapter 2):
Comment by: Laura M.
2 06/14/07 10:01 PM | Comment Link |The part about ‘believe Jesus is the son of God’ and the part about ‘love people’ sounds simple.
But what about the ‘obey God’ part? What if you have no idea what God wants? What if you’ve asked and asked (prayer) but received no response -at least no response that you’re aware of?
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
3 06/15/07 5:26 AM | Comment Link |Actually I don’t even think ‘love people’ is simple.
When you enter the Christian world people stop defining love as “what makes people feel loved” and start defining it as “I tell you what I think you need to hear”.
Not that Christians are all that simplistic about it; which is good because I don’t think love neatly divides into one or the other of those. If you are trying to help, say, an alcoholic, you will probably have to intervene in ways they consider mean.
The problem I’ve run into with Christians is that some of them don’t look hard enough at whether it’s actually necessary to be as mean as they are being. I would say minimizing meanness should always be a priority, even when you think “the other person is going to interpret this as mean whatever I do”.
I should add, Mike, you are one of the least mean Christians I’ve ever met so I am certainly not thinking of you.
Did you see my post about Chuck Colson’s speech?
I liked the bit about prisoners and the Jesus story being exciting - but there is so much scope for being unnecessarily mean when a Christian has views as black and white as his. He was unnecessarily mean to emerging Christians in how he depicted them, in my opinion. And he probably has no idea how mean his strident language against various things comes across to lots of people.
Which I think is a shame because he obviously genuinely cares about giving prisoners hope and helping them live new lives.
Comment by: Mike O
4 06/15/07 6:36 AM | Comment Link |Well, pulling it back to 1 John, I think we need to be careful when we start applying these “rules” to other people.
Love People. Obey (and love) God.
So how do you know if you’re obeying God? That comes with time spent with him. Let me ask this. If you’re married, how do you know if you’re doing what your spouse wants you to do (I don’t mean that in an unhealthy way)? Through time spent with him/her, you learn their likes, dislikes, what they value, what they don’t, and on and on. Because of your relationship with them, you know when you’re doing something they would approve of and when you’re not.
I think it’s the same with God. If you love him, you’ll want to do things that will make him feel loved. Whatever that may be.
Laura, I don’t know what perspective you’re coming from, whether Christian or atheist or somewhere in between. Did you have a specific example in mind?
I know how I try to determine whether or not I’m “obeying God”, but this is just me - and I’m probably wrong just as often as the next guy.
If “obeying God” is attitudinal (how would God want me to act, how does he want me to think, etc), I think those are generally laid out in Scripture. In general, if it produces “the fruit of the Spirit,” (good attitudes), then it probably lines up with what God would want (Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control).
If it’s a more specific, situational example (should I do this or that), I think you just kind of “go with your gut.” Not “if it feels good, do it” but “if it feels right, do it.” And my personal opinion is, if you can’t tell what God wants, he doesn’t care … do what you will enjoy.
Finally, there are things that are specifically talked about in the Bible. If the Bible is clear about something (like judging, for example), I try to go by that.
Mostly, however, I think it’s important to understand that it’s not a rules-based relationsip. It’s like a marriage. I try to make him happy because I love him. He tries to make me happy because he loves me. You get the picture. Even if I get it wrong, the fact that I love him will cover a multitude of mistakes.
Comment by: Stephan
5 06/15/07 7:48 AM | Comment Link |I like to think of pleasing God similar to how I want to please my parents, and how I want my kids to please me. There are times when I want my kids in a specific place at a specific time to do a specific thing, but most of the time, and particularly as they mature and grow up, I am more concerned that wherever they are, they live up to the principles that I have taught them.
So I don’t think that God is so concerned about where I live or where I work, but with how I conduct myself wherever I live and work. How do I treat the people I work with? How do I treat my family? Am I loving in the things I say and do? Do I stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves? Am I generous with what I have?
I think this is what it means to be obedient to God. There may be times when He is specific, and you can only discern that for yourself, but in the general way you conduct your life I think the principles are easy to know, but not often easy to carry out.
Comment by: Mike O
6 06/15/07 8:09 AM | Comment Link |It’s hard to explain to people who don’t understand, becasue there are whackos out there who would say they think they are pleasing god (Fred Phelps comes to mind), but it’s clear to everyone around them that they aren’t.
I don’t think you can make up a hard and fast set of rules for what is and what is not pleasing to god, because that would be religion. And isn’t that the problem with Christianity today … people trying to live by a set of man-made rules that someone has defined as “obedience to God?”
Rather, it’s a heart thing. You can have an obedient spirit, and I think that’s what the goal has to be. I mean, who is someone else to tell me whether or not I’m being obedient to God? Even here at ebay atheist. I’ve got a lot of Christian friends who question what I’m doing here. And I understand their questions, but they don’t understand that in my spirit, it just feels right. So I’m going with that.
I’ve done the wrong thing before, and it doesn’t feel good on the inside.
With no set rules, I jsut try to do what I think He wants me to do. If I’m wrong, he’ll let me know. If he doesn’t tell me, then no worries, mate. But that only works if I actually stay in communication with God through prayer. I pray a lot of “what do I do now” prayers.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
7 06/15/07 8:47 AM | Comment Link |Mike O wrote:
This makes sense if you believe you’re in a relationship with God - I understand the analogy.
See the thing is, once I started to wonder if this was all a game I was playing in my head, I couldn’t find a way to prove to myself “no, it’s not just a game I’m playing in my head.”
It might not have been but - I just couldn’t be sure.
“It feels right in my spirit” - I’ve been there but now I feel profoundly uncomfortable saying “that proves I am obeying God”.
Even though, I still have feelings along those lines sometimes.
I don’t know what they are - emotions? God?
Comment by: Mike O
8 06/15/07 9:14 AM | Comment Link |You can’t prove it. But whether or not your brain could be playing games with you has nothing to do with whether or not God could be speaking to you as well. I don’t think you can prove you’re right every time. But I think you can try to be right every time. And when you miss, you learn from that.
That’s because it doesn’t. My take on it is, if I’m trying to get it right - if my intentions are right - I won’t get spanked for screwing up.
But that goes hand in hand with a lot of prayer.
Comment by: Stephan
9 06/15/07 9:28 AM | Comment Link |I can sympathize with Helen as she, by her own blog-testimony, has had her mind play tricks on her. I’m sure it feels a lot like the voice of God even when it most certainly is not. At that point it is much safer to stop listening to the voices in your head rather than try to discern which ones are from God and which ones are just your head playing games with you.
I think this is where scripture plays a role. If what you feel God is commanding is contradictory to what Jesus taught, it is probably not from God.
Comment by: Mike O
10 06/15/07 10:00 AM | Comment Link |Yeah. I think you could simplify it to do what you KNOW is right (scripture, whatever). And if you can’t KNOW it’s right, do what you think is right and don’t be afraid to be wrong.
And I keep coming back to “love people.” If what you do, you do out of love for people, it’s probably not wrong.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
11 06/15/07 1:43 PM | Comment Link |Stephan wrote:
Mike O wrote:
Thanks Stephan.
Yes, my next thought was - can’t I use the Bible to tell me what’s right and wrong? That’s not in my head! But then I realized people interpret it differently and I couldn’t be sure who was right and who was wrong.
So that didn’t work for me.
Mike O wrote:
Exactly! That’s why I stopped praying or reading the Bible and just try to do my best to do what I think is right.
Uh-oh. I guess it doesn’t in my cause. It goes with hoping and humility.
Comment by: Mike O
12 06/16/07 3:59 AM | Comment Link |I feel like this has drifted a bit from the reason I wrote this. I know this audience is primarily atheist. My purpose was not to try to convince you I am right, but rather to open a window into one Christian’s mindset.
and …
Do we believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
Do we try to love people?
Do we try to obey God?
If a person claims to be a Christian, those answers should be yes. Regardless of whether you agree with us or value our goals, at least now you have had a peek at what should be the underpinnings of how we lead our lives.
At least that’s what I personally see when I read 1 John.
Comment by: Mike O
13 06/16/07 4:30 AM | Comment Link |I’ve gotten some interesting feedback from other Christians who’ve read what I wrote. I had two people tell me “I can’t believe you wrote that!”
What I think they meant was “I can’t believe you can get away with writing that.” but I’m not sure.
Anyway, I’m not trying to get away with anything. I know this audience is primarily atheists but I’m honestly not trying to preach and I certainly don’t expect anyone to come running to Jesus because of this. You don’t buy it … I get that.
My goal with these is to give non-Christians insight into the workings of the raving Christian mind. That’s why I title these “The Ravings of a Madman.” I hope that comes across when I write.
Comment by: Karen
14 06/16/07 10:30 AM | Comment Link |Most atheists (and almost-atheists) reading this blog were Christians at one time. Certainly most of us have been raised in a culture that is steeped with the bible and Christianity.
Why would your posting thoughts on 1 John be something you’d have to “get away with”? I don’t understand that reaction.
Comment by: Laura M.
15 06/16/07 4:05 PM | Comment Link |Karen makes a good point here:
It’s a rare atheist in the U.S. who hasn’t read much of the bible or ever attended church.
Thank you Mike and Stephan for your responses. From my readings of the bible I don’t think scritpure is at all clear about what God wants. (I’ve been told I have some pretty ‘mad skillz’ when it comes to reading comprehension :-)
So much changed over the time period during which it was written , as well as our interpretations of scripture based on changes which have occurred since then. There’s just so much disagreement, as Helen said, on meaning as regards the bible.
That’s why I didn’t specifically refer to scripture in my question:
So what I was wondering is, what if you are a Christian who also believes the bible isn’t very clear about what God wants, and you’ve prayed a lot for guidance from God, but haven’t recieved any overt or apparent response?
I find these responses to that question helpful:
Thank you for these thoughtful replies to my question. I do feel,though, that frequent referencing of prayer or scripture wouldn’t likely be very helpful to a Christian who really struggles with the question I asked.
Comment by: Laura M.
16 06/16/07 4:10 PM | Comment Link |And by ’scritpure’, I mean scripture :8-0~
(I definitely don’t have any ‘mad skillz’ for typing.)
Comment by: Laura M.
17 06/16/07 4:15 PM | Comment Link |Oops! Sorry, this was supposed to be in block quotes too. Thanks Mike O!
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
18 06/16/07 4:36 PM | Comment Link |Mike O wrote:
Hey I just noticed something.
Don’t Christians need to believe Jesus is God, not just the Son of God?
I was always taught, if you believe Jesus is the Son of God but not God, you don’t go to heaven.
Comment by: Mike O
19 06/16/07 7:00 PM | Comment Link |I think because they thought it would be too preachy to an audience that doesn’t want to hear it.
I didn’t know that it was that common. I thought it was a minority that just happened to be frequenters of this blog.
I’ve heard of that, but not as a mainline teaching. It’s probably a semantical thing and some poeple maybe get real militant about it. I don’t know.
I know there’s the Islamic belief that while Jesus was born of a virgin he was a creation of God, but not the Son of God.
As far as I’ve ever heard, people who believe he is the Son of God would also believe he is God. I guess I never really thought about it.
I just did a word search on “believe” in 1 John, and came up with these verses that support the concept of “Son of God.”
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
20 06/17/07 4:49 AM | Comment Link |Mike O wrote:
Yes, the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God a lot. I don’t know anyone who believes the Bible and disagrees with that.
The question isn’t “Is he God and not the Son of God?” but, is he both?
Mike, could you ask your pastor “Does everyone who believes Jesus is the Son of God believe he is God? And is the difference just semantics?” then tell me what he says?
I’m curious to know.
Comment by: Mike O
21 06/18/07 2:30 AM | Comment Link |OK, I sent him your question (it’s about 4:30am, and I didn’t want to forget).
Who was that one lady that was here last year … I can’t remember her name but she thought that Jesus was not divine … I think her name was Yvonne or something like that??? I think she was an Aussie and she had her own blog.
Comment by: Mike O
22 06/18/07 5:28 AM | Comment Link |A few posts up, we were talking about how do you know if you’re obeying God or not, and I’m actually in the middle of something like that right now. I’ve been asked to help with something with church, but I’m thinking I should say no (or at least “not now”) because over the past few months, it seems like I’m supposed to be trying to balance my life a little better, not being so cotton-pickin’ busy with church stuff all the time, and leaving more time for other things like family, friends and work. I’m not saying I should cut out church stuff all together … it’s a big part of who I am and I do see the need to be part of that. But I could do a better job of balancing things.
Anyway, I’ve been asked to help with something that will be a big responsibility, so that makes me want to say ‘no,’ but at the same time it’s doing something directly related to where I’m at spiritually right now … making our church better at connecting with those Jesus misses most. I’m ALL OVER THAT need. Anyone who has read my posts over the past year knows that I think that is a shortcoming of the church and I want to be a part of fixing that.
So what does that have to do with obeying God? the question here is, how can you prove you’re obeying God? And here I am in the middle of a situation with multiple right answers. Which one should I choose? Which one would be “obeying God?”
I don’t know. I can tell you I’m leaning towards “wait and do it later” because I’ve been extremely busy lately and I’m a little tired. OK, I’m a LOT tired. And I think what God would want is for me to get some rest. I think what God wants from me, for now, is to be available for people and not be “so busy with church stuff that I don’t have time for people.” I think what God wants is for me and my pastor(s) to see is that I don’t have to say “yes” all the time and I think what God wants me to learn is that it’s OK to have a few dull moments.
I know I’m tired and I believe that it’s not God’s will for people to go 100 miles an hour all the time, even if it’s for good things. I also believe there are things I should be doing that I’m not.
I think what God wants is for me to rest now and if the opportunity is still there in a few months, maybe do it then.
But on the other hand, doing this would SO fit what off-the-map would have me do … work with the church to fix the problem.
So here I am. Stuck in the middle of two right answers - “yes” and “wait.” I think I’m supposed to wait. But how do I know I’m obeying God if I say “not now” to something my pastor is ready to do now? I don’t. But I think that’s what I’m supposed to do. And if I’m wrong, at least God knows I tried to get it right.
For me, if I don’t know what to do - particularly if I’m thinking one thing and people I trust are telling me something different - I wait until the answer eventually becomes clear. They are very often right - that’s why I trust them. And if it doesn’t ever become clear, I do what I think is right. Because I answer to God, not them.
Comment by: Keith
23 06/18/07 6:24 AM | Comment Link |Mike,
Thanks for posting so openly. You stated that you are in the middle of two right answers - you’re probably right. Either way you go will be both challenges and benefits for others and for yourself. If you do accept this responsibility, it might be a good idea to cut something else out of your life so that you don’t go 100 mph (sounds like you do not want that lifestyle). 1 John 4:16-18 talks a bit about perfect love driving out fear … specifically the fear of punishment. If you are worried about making a mistake, allow yourself to relax and remember God’s love without condition. Either way, you’re going to be okay.
Comment by: Mike O
24 06/18/07 6:38 AM | Comment Link |I’ve been in “cutting” mode for a little while now, letting things roll off my plate and not adding anything to replace it. That’s why I’m hesitant to add this, but it’s harder because it’s something I actually want to do, but I’m not sure if I should.
Yeah, that’s huge. I get confused sometimes, but I’m generally not afraid to be wrong.
I know …
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
25 06/18/07 9:01 PM | Comment Link |Mike, thanks for asking your pastor. I think you’re thinking of Vynette.
Does your wife think you should say yes or no to the extra church role?
Comment by: Mike O
26 06/19/07 2:13 AM | Comment Link |She thinks I should say yes.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
27 06/19/07 4:30 AM | Comment Link |I’m glad she’s so supportive!
In that case, I’d suggest you ask her to help you out by you having a conversation in which you tell her all the things that are making you hesitate about taking on this extra role, and she tells you why she doesn’t think those are reasons not to. Unless you actually convince her you shouldn’t do it, in the course of that conversation!
Or maybe you already did this and are still unsure :)
Comment by: Mike O
28 06/19/07 10:01 AM | Comment Link |There’s a million factors, combined with the fact that she’s a staff pastor there, too. So that, by association, makes it harder for me to say no.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
29 06/19/07 12:10 PM | Comment Link |Yes, I’m sure that’s tricky…
oh, the challenges of being a pastor’s wife! ;-)
Comment by: Mike O
30 06/19/07 1:19 PM | Comment Link |You have no idea! Lucky for me I don’t crochet or play the organ.
And I *don’t* do tea!
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
31 06/19/07 1:50 PM | Comment Link |Is that the new role you’re unsure about taking on - learning to crochet? ;-)
Comment by: Doreen Mannion
32 06/19/07 4:45 PM | Comment Link |At the risk of answering completely differently tomorrow, here I go….
I do believe Jesus is the son of God but I do not believe Jesus is God any more than I believe the Holy Spirit is God.
I see God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as one divine substance with three individual ways of being. (This is more Eastern than Western since it emphasizes the three-ness of God.)
I think many Christians take the more Western theological view of emphasizing the oneness of God.
As an illustration, the Eastern would be a circle and the Western would be a triangle.
A Trinity quiz for your consideration:
1. God as heavenly board of directors (me: no).
2. God one big boss with two subordinates (me: no).
3. God three players on a football team (me: no).
4. God wears three hats (me: this works for me if God wears the three hats simultaneously).