Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 06.26.2007 /
I received the following question in an e-mail from a Christian. I think it’s a wonderful question - it makes me so happy when Christians ask questions like this!
If i believe in something, it is absolute for me (else I’m just patronizing or toying around with a concept).
If I believe “that something” is true (and is of overwhelming importance), how, in your opinion, can I approach the subject without being overbearing, “arrogant” or patronizing?
Any suggestions?
Comment by: Stephan
1Two words come to mind - certainty and humility. As a believer, it is hard (if not impossible) to have both.
I believe God exists, and that he came to earth in the person of Jesus. Am I certain of this? To be honest, I cannot say that I am. I am confident in it, but certainty would require proof, and I do not have that. If I am certain that I am right, then I am also certain that you are wrong, and this appears as arrogance.
It is possible, I think, with this in mind to believe it without being patronizing, because, in all honesty, I know I might be wrong. If you are aware that you might be wrong, then you admit that someone else might be right, which requires humility.
That said, I am probably not the best example of this. Look at Jim H. or Mike C.
Comment by: Laura M.
2Well said, Stephan. Interestingly enough, I feel the same way about atheism.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3You might find this helpful
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqKZr-nR8Oo
Comment by: John Koh
4Hi everyone, thanks for answering to the question I raised.
I’m drawing from experiences at work now - I’ve found that meaningful sharing of opinions usually take place when mutual respect has been established - i.e. Its clear that it is alright to disagree, that no one is deemed “to be less of a person” when disagreed with and that everyone is open to consider other point of views without feeling undermined.
do you feel that this could also work in the context where the basis of faith is shared? if not, why?
Comment by: Laura M.
5OK, so I really like that youTube clip. Hope is a beautiful thing.
Soooo…
I’m not trying to be a smart-aleck here, but I’m going to go ahead and just ask this because I really want to know. And I’ve really appreciated the honesty from all the Christians who post here at Off the Map.
1)How do you reconcile the mean God of the Old Testament with the loving God that Jesus taught about?
and
2) Why does a loving father allow his children to hurt and even kill each other?
I imagine if question #2 can be answered it might help explain #1(?)
You see, the concept of ‘free will’ doesn’t answer anything, IMO. I give my kids tons of ‘free will’, but I would never let them hurt each other or anyone else. Seriously, you wouldn’t believe the decisions I let them make for themselves.
I can’t help feeling that if I can figure out how to give my kids all the free will they need (and then some), but still step in whenever necessary- God should be able to figure out how to do that too.
In order to believe in God and have hope or faith in God, I really need him to be a loving God.
Allowing your children to hurt and kill each other isn’t loving.
Comment by: Laura M.
6John,
I think what you ask about is exactly what happens here at Off the Map every day.
One thing that has been interesting, and a bit confusing to me, is that I’ve seen some who post here suggest that it is more difficult to remain respectful or to get across the intention of respect when leaving comments or communicating online the way we are doing now.
I always thought it was easier for at least a couple of reasons. First you can really think out what you want to say before you say/write it. Then you can review before you post. You can edit out anything you decide in retro-spect might be a bad idea to say.
Also, you don’t have the problem of tone of voice or body language that might offend others even when that is not your intention.
For me, it’s easier to talk this way (in writing)about such serious topics that are so important to so many people. I know I’ve had a harder time doing this ‘face to face’.
Comment by: Stephan
7Laura, there is no easy answer to your questions, but I’ll give it a try.
First of all, I think God communicates with people where they are, while trying to point to a better way. People in Old Testament times were barbaric, and God communicated to them in a way that was somewhat barbaric, while still trying to urge them to something better. Read a passage like Isaiah 58 for a picture of what God really wanted the people to become. He wanted them to love mercy and care for those less fortunate. This call is echoed throughout the prophets of the Old Testament.
I also believe that history is written by the victor. When you march into a city and kill everyone it’s easy to say you did it because God told you to. That doesn’t mean it’s true. I realize that is a little outside of mainstream Christian thinking, but so be it. I am not always convinced that everything attributed to God in the Bible came out of His mouth.
Also, I realize that “free will” seems like a cop-out at times, but I would challenge you to consider the options. One would be that God would make us either too weak to hurt each other or too strong to be hurt by each other. I’m not sure how that would work. Another option is that God would directly intervene any time someone tried to harm someone else, or if some force of nature (storm, earthquake, etc.) might harm someone. It would be a world where there was no cause and effect established. Natural laws would mean nothing because they would always be tampered with when someone was going to be harmed.
Finally, who’s to say that God hasn’t kept us from some greater evil that we could do to each other? And if He did, how would we know it? Maybe our free will is limited and we just don’t even know what is beyond those limits.
Comment by: Stephan
8John, I think respect breaks down when one party stoops to “You just don’t get it.” This calls the other party’s intellect into question, which will always be insulting and patronizing. I’ve seen this happen a great deal on both sides, and it always breaks communication.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
9Jim thanks for mentioning the video - great idea! It’s very relevant.
John thanks for stopping by and following up. Welcome to the eBay atheist blog!
Laura, I like online communication for the reasons you said, but I also think that it trips people up often because they don’t realize how ambiguous their tone can be when people have only their written words to interpret - no facial expressions or tone of voice.
I’ve seen lots of miscommunication happen online because someone was kidding and the other person thought they were being serious and/or mean. I don’t think that would have happened in person because a smile or the tone of voice would have eliminated the ambiguity. Or it would have been instantly resolved during the conversation whereas online it may take more than a day - during which time the recipient fumes - until you realize they didn’t pick up that you were joking. So miscommunications online more easily escalate once they’ve happened.
Seeing people miscommunicate then resolve it online is a beautiful thing (imo). In some ways I think they end up knowing each other better that way than if they’d never miscommunicated.
Thanks Stephan - yes, “You just don’t get it” is very unhelpful! Excellent point.
Comment by: Stephan
10Jim, I just watched the video, and that is exactly what I was trying to say. You, of course, said it much better than me. Sadly, I’ve gotten used to that.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
11Stephan wrote
I like your answer, and agree with the degree of difficulty.
I also like the idea of approaching subjects for which I hold strong beliefs with humility and reasoning. The reasoning should be something other than “because the Bible tells me so,” LOL.
Comment by: Laura M.
12Stephan, you answered these questions beautifully, including in your first response above.
I could easily accept this reasoning, Stephan.
As well as your reasoning about the God of the Old Testament.
Except:
This isn’t true with my children. They’re strong enough to hurt each other if they choose to , but I don’t allow that choice.
I’m not understanding why natural laws would be more important to a loving God (father) than the safety of his children.
I work really hard to ‘establish cause and effect’ with my kids. I take so few choices away from them and let them deal with the consequences of their own actions as much as possible.
I don’t see that it has to be either/or (either we have free will /or God protects his children). I don’t see why you can’t have both, at least the vast majority of the time. It’s what I manage to do every day with my kids.
What I can’t justify in my own mind is why God would allow the free will of a guilty person at the expense of the life and safety of the innocent. We humans seem to believe this is wrong. Every justice system known to man works on the opposite premise. We protect the safety of the innocent at the expense of the free will of the guilty.
I think most of us believe it would be immoral to do otherwise. So to me, a God who does otherwise is immoral. I can’t reason my way around that, no matter how hard I try or how much I would like to be able to.
Stephan, thank you for your help with these questions. I hope you know that I’m not trying to prove Christian thinking to be wrong or illogical.
Comment by: Laura M.
13Helen,
I try really hard to understand the perspective of others, but on rare occasions I have to conclude this about myself. Sometimes I “just don’t get it”.
But you’re right, it’s “very unhelpful”.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
14Laura, yes, I sometimes think that about myself too.
What I was getting at in my response to Stephan (as you probably realized :)) is: it’s a lot different to think that about myself, than have someone else say to me “You just don’t get it!” as if they have superior understanding to me.
Comment by: Stephan
15Laura, I appreciate your questions and don’t suspect your motives at all. I have met plenty of atheists online who simply ask questions so they can knock down the answers, and I don’t see you doing that at all. I respect that.
I’m sorry you don’t find my answers entirely satisfactory, but I’m not surprised. I don’t find them entirely satisfactory myself. Free will is one of the hardest concepts, which is why there are so many theories about it. The best book I have read on the topic is “Is God to Blame” by Greg Boyd. Much of what I am saying is taken from him, although he says it much better than me. That explains why he is a best selling author and I am a computer geek.
Here’s another stab. In order for God to create the kinds of limits that you have as a parent, He would have to be much more visible in the world. He would have to visibly step in whenever evil was going to occur and put a stop to it. This would, I believe, almost totally put a stop to free will as we know it. If we puny humans were confronted with the awesome presence of God, we would have no choice but to believe and obey him. This is not what God desires. I believe he wants us to freely choose to follow him, and if He were to reveal Himself in an obvious way it would be too strong an influence.
Again, I don’t make the argument very well, and Boyd makes it much better. If you have the time I recommend reading “Is God to Blame” and any other of his books.
Comment by: Laura M.
16Thank you Stephan for the book referral.
I would be interested to read this book. I wonder if it deals with the question of why a loving father would put what he desires before what his children need?
The only answers I have so far are:
1) He loves us but still does what’s best for himself, not what is best for us. In other words our loving him and his loving us doesn’t necessarily mean he is good.
2)All the bad things that happen in the world aren’t real, they’re just an illusion. But then why should we try to help people if their problems aren’t real? What if their troubles are real and we allow people to suffer when we could have helped?
3)God wants us to learn how to love, care for and help each other, so then he doesn’t intervene so that we can learn how to do this for ourselves. But then God becomes likes the neglectful parent who puts all the burden on children to care for their younger siblings, instead of dealing with his own responsibilities.
I need a better answer that leaves me with a good and loving Father who does his best for his children.
The only answer that leads me in that direction is:
God isn’t perfect.
If we are truly made in his image, maybe that would explain why we aren’t either?
Comment by: Mark
17Laura,
Excuse me for joining the conversation so late. Like others here, I find your questions to be real, heartfelt, and entirely legitimate, without easy, formulaic answers.
I doubt there is a sincere and passionately alive Christian anywhere who hasn’t at some time wrestled with this very question. I know I have frequently.
But I’d like to submit another question to consider. Actually, it is a question in two parts, from two angles. First, is it at all possible that what the loving Father truly desires is exactly what his children need? And is it at all possible that his children don’t really know exactly what they need?
I don’t know the ages of your children, but my four children are all adults now, and I have seen them make not very good decisions sometimes as young adults. My wife and I have sometimes borne the burden of those poor decisions, but we have not intervened to prevent them and force another direction because to do so would be counterproductive. It might prevent a certain amount of difficulty in the short run, but in the end would have created only resentment and would have driven them away from us.
Now, with a little bit more maturity gained, the son that I have primarily in mind here is able to tell us that what we did was exactly what he needed. We gave him freedom to reject our best advice and to make his own mistakes, we took on much of the burden of those mistakes ourselves, he learned from those mistakes, and he is now taking steps to prevent making them in the future.
Please don’t misunderstand me: I don’t claim that we are perfect parents by any means. I’ve been so confused about raising kids and have screwed it up so many times I can’t begin to recount them. My point is merely that it is possible that we are all like my son, that we don’t particularly know what we need and that we have a Father whose love is so deep and rich that in our best interests he will not intervene.
Just an angle for you to consider.