Fighting for Atheist Respect, or Asking for It?

Comment by: Siamang

The problem with earning respect is that you have to be OUT to do it.

Stephan, if you knew me at work, or were a neighbor or I coached your kid’s T-ball team, or volunteered at your school’s book fair, you wouldn’t KNOW that an atheist had earned your respect.

Because we atheists have been TAUGHT, and swallowed the idea that our mere existence is an insult to people with deeply-held sincere spiritual beliefs. I shut up about religion when my family talks and talks and talks about it. I shut up about it. I go to my parents’ church with them when I visit them. I sit at the table when all of their friends discuss Christ. I bow my head when they pray. Because I don’t want to insult their beliefs by saying that I have beliefs that differ from theirs.

It’s a personal hang-up, I know. But I’m waking up to the fact that it’s wrong. People need to know that atheists exist and be okay with it.

So it’s kind of a chicken and egg thing. I have to be OUT to earn your respect, but I’ve been INVISIBLE to try and not make you feel threatened. And I’d feel like a whore to wear an atheist t-shirt while doing charity work.

A lot of atheist self-loathing you’re hearing. A lot of anger about atheists seeking public permission to be so rude as to assert their beliefs.

Comment by: Siamang

Given the nature of aetheism, why do aetheists care what Christians think of them?

Because we have to live with them. Because I’m sick of being demonized and having my beliefs linked with immorality, and I inspire hatred and should shut up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU&eurl=

Atheists face discrimination. We face threats. One poster on this site has been fired because he revealed his beliefs. Children have been harrassed when they wouldn’t follow along in (unconstitutional) prayers in a public school. Every month brings a new chapter in the never-ending story of “hey, I figured out another way around the Constitution to get Christ pushed on schoolkids!”

So how do we get respect? Can it be earned? Or frankly are most Christians opposed to respecting atheists or atheism under any circumstances because of what they represent. ie: skepticism about the very existence of the supernatual?

I think I respect individuals, not categories.

I think that’s fine, and admirable, but I don’t think it’s the issue.

If you say you respect individuals, not categories, then do you have automatic disrespect for members of certain categories? There are, for me, certain groups that garner automatic disrespect. Criminals, for example. Members of racist organizations, for example.

If nobody gets automatic respect, can we re-calibrate the question:

Can we make it so that atheists don’t get automatic disrespect among Christians? (I’ll call this the Hemant Mehta approach.)

Or do we give up on convincing moderate Christians, because there aren’t enough of them anyway, and instead focus on attacking Christianity as an idea and an institution to weaken it and promote atheism as a better idea. (I’d call this the Richard Dawkins approach.)

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Julie Marie, I’m sorry about your sister. Was she rejected for believing in God or for not believing?

Comment by: Karen

Sorry to hear about your sister, Julie. Rejection always hurts.

Thinking about it, maybe the guy really did her a favor in the long run. If god-belief is that important to him and she doesn’t believe, they might not have been compatible anyway.

And the odds are certainly in her favor in the skeptic/atheist community - so that’s the good news! :-)

Comment by: Siamang

Thanks, Doreen.

Oh Julie, I’m sad for your sister.

What I’m glad for is that she didn’t lie about it. That’s terrible for your self-esteem. Let’s hope she finds someone right for her… honesty is a vital step in that.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Julie Marie, thanks for your answer. I’m curious: has your relationship with her got better as your views have changed?

Comment by: Laura M.

Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. was shouting as he delivered his “I have a dream speech”.

Comment by: Julie Marie

Atheists have written books which they have sold in bookstores.

If the criticism is that atheists should tone it down, shouldn’t the opposition tone it down as well, and see this as a “book writing revolt” and not the real kind — the kind where people get hurt?

But Siamang…in the grand sweep of time, what has more impact, an idea or a bat?

Comment by: Doreen Mannion

Wow, Julie Marie; that’s an incredibly insightful and powerful paragraph.

It’s sad we have so many forces that make it difficult for us to live as our authentic selves. It is exhausting to have to determine which “me” to be when, with whom. I would have never gotten integrated if not for LOTS of therapy. It is so liberating to just be and not have to pick out a costume first.

Comment by: Julie Marie

It’s sad we have so many forces that make it difficult for us to live as our authentic selves

yes. its ironic that, while Jesus was one of the most authentically himself individuals around, in his name people supress themselves and repress others to conform to an ideal that no one can agree on anyways.

Comment by: Laura M.

Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. was shouting as he delivered his “I have a dream” speech.

Many preachers appear to be shouting when preaching, as he was doing. You’ll often hear the congregants shout “preach it,” which increases the volume by the speaker.

Yes, I’ve attended many services where the preachers were shouting. I don’t think they ‘appear’ to be shouting, they are shouting. They usually have microphones, just as Dr. King had, so the volume level of their speech usually isn’t necessary in order to simply be heard.

King helped to change the views of many about his race by speaking up, sometimes loudly, and by not backing down in the face of great injustice and violence directed against not just his race but also against his person.

I believe Rev. King and many other preachers shout(ed) for a similar reason, to make the point that they will not allow their voices to be silenced out of fear.

King was effective because he drew attention to the clear, simple injustice of it all. Sometimes you have to shout to do that, to draw attention to a problem.

You do not break through such bigotry by polite discussion. You break through it by being loud and vigorous. That’s one of the lessons you learn from the civil rights struggles of the past. Social progress is not made when the downtrodden ask politely for their just due. That women, blacks and gays faced greater oppression than what atheists face today does not alter that fact.

Matthew’s comment that such discrimination as exists against atheists is caused in part by the writings of Dawkins and Hitchens is nothing more than plain, vanilla blaming the victim. (And it’s unsubstantiated to boot). It is an old cliche that gets trotted out every time a minority group starts getting a bit too vocal. The argument conjures up preposterous images of large numbers of non-bigots going over to the dark side when the victims of discrimination start rhetorically attcking the bigots. It is to laugh.

I agree with this for the most part except for one caveat:

You do not break through such bigotry by polite discussion. You break through it by being loud and vigorous. That’s one of the lessons you learn from the civil rights struggles of the past.

I don’t think it’s an either/or issue. I think both polite discussion and ‘loud and vigorous’ discussion, or argument, are necessary. Without the ‘loud and vigorous’ part I don’t think most people not directly experiencing the injustice or unfairness of a problem would be able to develop the empathy necessary to understand how important the issue is to those who are directly affected.

Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Rev. King, Bishop Tutu, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Alice Paul all politely discussed issues of injustice and their words did have a large impact on public perception. But how many would have ever listened to their words were it not for the impolite, and loud, protest marches resulting from or preceeding many of their speeches?

I don’t know if Gandhi ever shouted or not. Revolutionay violence was an important part of India’s ability to achieve independence and self-rule, however, just as it was for most other similar successful movements.

The issue for most atheists today, in developed nations, isn’t one of freedom in the sense that we are not protected equally under the law, because for the most part we are. Therefore there is nothing to be gained for us through violent action.

There is, however, motivation for ‘civil disobedience’ and ‘non-cooperation’, as taught by Gandhi and King, when appropriate.

Conversely, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Gandhi shouting

As I said, I don’t know if Gandhi ever shouted. Those who gathered outside the place where he was imprisoned, on the other hand, made their outrage at the injustice easily and loudly apparent.

I don’t think they apologized for or asked permission to do that.

Comment by: Laura M.

In other words, the reason to respect atheists as a group is because they are part of a group (the only group that really counts) that everyone is a part of.

Atheists should be respected as a group because as a group they are all human.

Comment by: Laura M.

the label “atheist” has negative connotations, whether or not they are earned. As such, there is a level of respect that has to be earned back once you identify yourself as an “atheist”. Unfortunately many of those who carry the atheist banner right now are combative and insulting, making it harder for the rest of you to earn that respect.

I disagree.

Comment by: Stephan

Laura, maybe we are using the term respect in a different way, but I would assume you would question the moral character of someone who judges other based on skin color. To me that shows less respect, and I think in that case it is earned. If you’re talking about something else, let me know.

Comment by: Laura M.

Stephan, I think everyone makes all sorts of unfounded assumptions about other people on the basis of all sorts of data: sex, age, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, income level, education level, marital status, height, weight, rural, urban, race…and much more.

For some, race is a more pivotal factor in the assumptions or stereotypes they hold, for some it is economic class, for others , like you it seems, it is the religious beliefs or lack thereof of others.

I admire that a person is aware of this about themselves and can admit it and perhaps is even willing to discuss it. Discussion of these issues, rather than sweeping them under the rug and trying to pretend they don’t exist is very important, imo.

And I would point out that because one makes assumptions about others on the basis of race doesn’t mean they treat others badly on the basis of these assumptions.

For me respect is about how one treats others. One cannot claim to have respect but treat others badly.

Conversely, a respectful person may think badly of others, but will always try to treat them well.

Comment by: Stephan

Laura, I believe that we are using the same term to mean different things. I “value” everyone equally as a human being. I do not see someone as less of a person because I disagree with them. I think we can agree on that.

For me, respect says more about how much I might value someone’s opinion or their motives in a particular case. If someone has proven in the past with their actions to have poor judgment I may not respect their input on a specific topic. To continue to analogy, I would not go to an avowed racist to get his thoughts on immigration. I would not respect his opinion on this topic. This does not mean that I see him as less of a person.

It is also possible that I am falling into the same trap that I accuse Dawkins et al of falling into - having contempt for those I disagree with. If that is the case then I need to check my motives and make some changes.

Comment by: Doreen A Mannion

Laura,

I get that you value your brother’s opinions, racists, and even Pat Robertson. But you’ve got my never ending admiration for being able to value anything Ann Coulter says!

:)

Comment by: Doreen A Mannion

Julie wrote

It was the breakup of my relationships that was part of the catalyst for my own “outing”, as an atheist. I found out that most of my friends were also atheists!!! Imagine my surprise. That’s how closeted I was, apparently. I didn’t even know Siamang’s wife—my friend since elementary school—was an atheist!! We never talked about it. You know, we never talked about ice hockey, either. We never talked about most stuff that didn’t interest us!

Here I go again on my “sounds just like…” soapbox.

Julie, I’m so glad you’re in mutual love. I didn’t find true love until I was 45, so anyone who thinks it’s too late at any age is probably mistaken.

When I came out as gay, I found out many of my friends were gay. Imagine my surprise! I didn’t even know that one of my best friends since high school was. We never talked about it, and come to think of it, we never talked about ice hockey either!

So, I’m at her house visiting, and we hadn’t seen each other for probably 5 years. This woman comes into the living room where we are chatting and sits down practically on top of my friend and I’m still clueless. Finally I was introduced to the girlfriend, lol.

BTW, this same friend is a Christian who went as far as exorcism to try to become not gay. If you like country music, you’d recognize the names of the peeps she’s written songs for (and the songs), but Nashville (Bible publisher cap. of the world) is SO homophobic, she’s never made it as a singer.

But I digress….

:)

Comment by: Julie

I’m curious - were you closeted on purpose, or was this just something that never came up so it didn’t get talked about? I think, living in the southeast, it would be hard to not have it come up because almost everyone wants to know what church you go to.

My dad is an atheist, and I just never got introduced to religion, really. My mom was sort of wishy washy about spirituality.

We moved all over the country when I was growing up, because of my dad’s job. We moved to Orange County and to Georgia. I think I was surrounded by a very Christian culture, so I learned to keep my mouth shut.

In my relationships, I had a Joseph Campbell outlook. I thought that in a way, my ex’s fundamentalist family was just trying to connect to the eternal. But he really struggled with his upbringing in a very deep and almost unconscious way. I think the fear of eternal punishment stays in you, even once you give up the idea of an actual, physical Hell. (I could be wrong, since I didn’t grow up with the idea of Hell, but that’s just what I observed.) He was constantly afraid of making the “wrong” decision. He was afraid we weren’t “soulmates.”

So it’s not like he turned away from me consciously because of religion, but I saw the effect of his religious upbringing in his life. When I went home with him for Christmas, I felt like an anthropologist. I was like, “WOW! You’re family totally means it when they sing Christmas carols! Like you guys really believe a dude who is going to make you live forever was born on this day!” It was totally wild for me.

He didn’t like it that these concepts were so exotic to me. I think he would have rather dated a girl who was also an ex-Christian but somehow also really couldn’t all the way let go of being a Christian. It was like he rejected his upbringing, but he didn’t replace it with any solid philosophy, so he was lost and constantly feeling guilty and mixed up.

Then, in both of those relationships, there were hangups about sex, about women and sex, and about, well, “sin”, really. I wasn’t brought up to believe in sin, so I would try to backpedal and deny my own past. But if you want to know, I’ve led what some would call a sinful life, and I’d call it a GREAT life!

Of course, if you want to interpret “soulmates” as just compatible people, I’m much more compatible with my atheist boyfriend now. And we love sinning together. Yessirreeeee!

Comment by: Julie Marie

We moved all over the country when I was growing up, because of my dad’s job. We moved to Orange County and to Georgia. I think I was surrounded by a very Christian culture, so I learned to keep my mouth shut.

I learned that lesson in sixth grade, after moving to the south. Its been a tough one to shake…but as I age, I’m finding that I care less about others reactions and more about honestly living my values. And I guess that might be because I am, at 46, finally wise enough to know that someone’s opinion of me isn’t going to make or break me - not just intellectually, but down to my core. I wish I’d gotten “here” sooner, but one does ones best, I guess.

was like, “WOW! You’re family totally means it when they sing Christmas carols!

:). Last Christmas was the first Christmas I didn’t cry when I sang Silent Night. Quite frankly, I didn’t want to do any decorating at all…but with a 4 year old in the house, I decided I’d better muster up the enthusiasm. My son and I decorated the tree together, and I was impressed…he really hung with it. As I tucked him in to bed, I thanked him for helping me so much. He replied: “its a big job Mommy. You will NEVER have to do that job alone…I won’t let that happen.” That statement alone made the effort worth it for me. And it accomplished what Silent Night did not :).

Then, in both of those relationships, there were hangups about sex, about women and sex, and about, well, “sin”, really.

ah yes, sin. I still find myself having to double check why I object to something…is it because it is harmful to someone, or is it because it was a cultural wrong 2000 years ago? It takes awhile to rethink these things.

Of course, if you want to interpret “soulmates” as just compatible people, I’m much more compatible with my atheist boyfriend now. And we love sinning together. Yessirreeeee!

haha. Good for you!