Pope: Other Christians Not True Churches

Posted by Siamang on: 07.10.2007 /

Oooooookay.

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

In other news, Coke has announced that Pepsi is not a true cola.

34 Responses to "Pope: Other Christians Not True Churches"

  • Comment by: Eliza

    1 07/10/07 12:29 PM | Comment Link |

    It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.

    On Saturday, Benedict revisited another key aspect of Vatican II by reviving the old Latin Mass. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.

    Kinda odd, if you think about it, to have Christian services held in Latin - the language of the Romans. I’m forgetting, did Jesus stress the importance of that in his teachings?

    It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”

    [...]

    “Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.

    [...]

    The document said Orthodox churches were indeed “churches” because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed “many elements of sanctification and of truth.” But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope — a defect, or a “wound” that harmed them, it said.

    Oh, right, I remember reading that Jesus said that, too. “You must remember the primacy of the pope, and follow apostolic succession, or you will not find salvation.”

    Despite the harsh tone of the document, it stresses that Benedict remains committed to ecumenical dialogue.

    “However, if such dialogue is to be truly constructive, it must involve not just the mutual openness of the participants but also fidelity to the identity of the Catholic faith,” the commentary said.

    So, am I reading it right? He’s basically saying, “If dialogue is to be truly constructive, you must agree with us & acknowledge the pope as the head of the church”?

    Hey - we should invite the Pope to the next Off The Map conference - “Hear, Listen, Connect”. He might gain a new appreciation for two-way dialogue…

  • Comment by: Julie Marie

    2 07/10/07 6:34 PM | Comment Link |

    I guess the only constructive dialog there is is the kind that occurs between people of the same opinions and beliefs.

    My goodness, this last year and a half of new thoughts have been an unconstructive use of my time! Well, insofar as it has helped me deconstruct my belief system and really examine what I took for granted, I guess maybe Benedict is right.

  • Comment by: Robin Bishop

    3 07/11/07 5:04 PM | Comment Link |

    Being a Mormon, I am forever impressed at how the rest of the Christian world can really go out of their to create insult and fain insult.

    What did you expect them to say?

  • Comment by: Julie Marie

    4 07/11/07 6:06 PM | Comment Link |

    I don’t think Christians go out of their way to insult…I think many are simply unaware of the arrogance of the assumptions that underly their feigned humility. I know I was.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    5 07/12/07 3:03 AM | Comment Link |

    I like Eliza’s comments! She’s right … so what verse is it that says we are saved by apostolic succession and recognition of the primacy of the pope and latin?

    The funny thing is, I know I’ve done that, too. How many things have I thought you “had to do” to be a Christian when really it’s quite simple.

  • Comment by: benjamin ady

    6 07/12/07 8:09 AM | Comment Link |

    Coke should know, shouldn’t they?

  • Comment by: benjamin ady

    7 07/12/07 8:13 AM | Comment Link |

    Julie

    Yeah–same goes for Americans … and humans in general. Except for me, of course. I’m totally exempt =)

    The scary thing about the pope being so wrong and so off is that there’s a lot of power associated with it, so it does more damage. Another great reason to eschew power.

    we should do a sidebar poll, along these lines: who do you find more offensive: the Pope, GWB, or yourself? I know how I’d answer =)

  • Comment by: Mike O

    8 07/12/07 8:55 AM | Comment Link |

    A guy walks into a bar and sees three people sitting at the bar … the pope, GWB and himself. He checks his revolver and he’s only got two bullets. Who does he shoot?

    OK, so this is an old lawyer joke and the answer is “He shoots the lawyer … twice.”

    I like GWB and I don’t think I’d shoot me, sooooo … I’d pop a couple of caps into the ceiling. Hey, you didn’t think I’d shoot the pope, did you?

  • Comment by: Siamang

    9 07/12/07 10:09 AM | Comment Link |

    Nobody shoot nothing!

    But seriously, I finally “got” (silly me) why The DaVinci Code was so controversial. It challenges apostolic sucession. DUH, SIAMANG!

    JEEZE… challenge apostolic sucession and then the Catholic Church would have to compete for the loyalty of adherants based on doctrine and practice just like… all other churches. hmmm…. can’t have that.

    *bangs head against wall*

    Sometimes I’m dense. Sorry.

  • Comment by: Doreen A Mannion

    10 07/12/07 11:00 AM | Comment Link |

    pope, smope

    sorry, but I am a recovering catholic

    I understand the Pope’s theology that the RC church is the one, true church. He has to maintain this belief - it’s part of what got the church were it was. Problem is, the RC church is never (IMHO) gonna get back where it was, so it’s time to play nice with those who don’t believe in apostolic succession, women can’t be priests, etc.

  • Comment by: Julie Marie

    11 07/12/07 5:10 PM | Comment Link |

    T

    he scary thing about the pope being so wrong and so off is that there’s a lot of power associated with it, so it does more damage. Another great reason to eschew power.

    yeah, what Ben said.

  • Comment by: Julie Marie

    12 07/12/07 6:31 PM | Comment Link |

    It challenges apostolic sucession.

    well, I guess you probably wouldn’t have had a chance to recite the Catholic version of the nicene creed…the version where believers repeat “…we believe in the one Holy Catholic Apostolic church, the communion of saints [...] Amen.

    Although that is what is recited, I believe Benedict is bringing his own opinions (gasp) into the Word of God, and what he is saying does not jive with what I was taught during my tenure as a devout Catholic.

  • Comment by: Doreen Mannion

    13 07/12/07 7:53 PM | Comment Link |

    Hi Julie Marie,

    Imagine my confusion, being brought up RC, when I started attending Protestant & ND churches and heard them saying the nicene creed, not the RC version. The one & the same version that most churches recite, which says one holy catholic apostolic church. In this regard, catholic does not mean RC and apostolic does not mean following Peter as first pope until foreverland.

  • Comment by: Julie Marie

    14 07/13/07 4:12 AM | Comment Link |

    right…the difference between the Big C and the little c…

    It was a puzzler for me too…

  • Comment by: Kathleen

    15 07/13/07 6:18 PM | Comment Link |

    I’ve got to be honest, I expected better here. It’s okay to have any belief system - Christian, atheist, or Scientologist - as long as you don’t pray in Latin and believe in apostolic succession?

    The Pope wouldn’t be the Pope if he didn’t think that Catholicism showed the path to salvation. He wouldn’t even be a Catholic. I wouldn’t be a Catholic if I didn’t think that Catholicism was right.

    Really, it’s inherent in believing something that you believe just that. I don’t believe that Muhammad was a prophet. I recognize the right of Muslims to believe that he was, but you can’t expect me (or the Pope) to say that following the teachings of Muhammad is the path to salvation. If I believed that, I’d be a Muslim. (N.B. I’m not saying that Muslims won’t be “saved” but just that Islam is not the path to salvation in my perspective. There’s a huge difference.)

    The thing is, I do believe in the primacy of the Pope - and it seems that most of you seem to hold that belief in a contempt much greater than any that Pope Benedict might have for any of your beliefs.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    16 07/13/07 7:37 PM | Comment Link |

    and it seems that most of you seem to hold that belief in a contempt much greater than any that Pope Benedict might have for any of your beliefs.

    I don’t think it’s “greater than,” but it’s probably similar.

    One thing I would add, though, is that Islam (and other religions) is inherently different than Christianity, but Catholicism and protestantism are conflicting views of Christianity. Maybe that’s why it draws more emotion … we see each as an errant version of the truth??

    I’m kind of going out on a limb, here … i’m not Catholic and don’t really know that much about it except for the primacy of he pope thing, and the emphasis on Mary. But I’ve never really studied it or anything.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    17 07/13/07 8:17 PM | Comment Link |

    The thing is, I do believe in the primacy of the Pope - and it seems that most of you seem to hold that belief in a contempt much greater than any that Pope Benedict might have for any of your beliefs.

    How does what I think about your beliefs change what he said? I may care for your beliefs, I may not. But if I’m talking about the primacy of the Pope, it’s because he himself re-declared it, and declared the less-than-primacy of all other Christian churches in the process.

    When a religious leader speaks, I often ask the question: “Is he building bridges, or building walls?” This was a wall.

    The Pope wouldn’t be the Pope if he didn’t think that Catholicism showed the path to salvation.

    We can well assume that the belivers in every religion believe they have found the correct path. The difference is, he’s saying that others, even other Christians, have the incorrect path.

    I’m just looking out for my peeps. The Pope just said that their churches aren’t real.

  • Comment by: Ir (Helen)

    18 07/14/07 5:46 AM | Comment Link |

    Kathleen wrote:

    The thing is, I do believe in the primacy of the Pope - and it seems that most of you seem to hold that belief in a contempt much greater than any that Pope Benedict might have for any of your beliefs.

    Kathleen, the article is about the Pope saying everyone else’s beliefs are wrong.

  • Comment by: Doreen Mannion

    19 07/14/07 7:03 AM | Comment Link |

    Siamang, if you have peeps, kinda like Gladys Knight had pips, I’d be proud to be one of your peeps!

  • Comment by: Kathleen

    20 07/14/07 8:10 AM | Comment Link |

    We can well assume that the belivers in every religion believe they have found the correct path. The difference is, he’s saying that others, even other Christians, have the incorrect path.

    Kathleen, the article is about the Pope saying everyone else’s beliefs are wrong.

    But that’s just the point. If he believes that his path is correct - and it’s obvious that he or anyone would, or they wouldn’t be on that path - then other paths, are, by default, incorrect. Is there a middle ground that I don’t see?

    Obviously, in reference to other Christians, he must believe that they’re getting something right, because they’re following Christ - but if he thinks that his way of doing so is right, doesn’t it follow that other ways of doing so aren’t? Doesn’t everyone follow certain beliefs and practice certain practices because they believe those beliefs and practices are right? Doesn’t it follow, then, that, to that person, not believing those beliefs or practicing those practices isn’t right? I’m not talking about objectively or absolutely, I’m talking about from one person’s perspective, even if that person is the Pope. It just seems logical to me - I don’t know why anyone is surprised that the Pope (or anyone else) thinks that his path is correct and so other paths are wrong.

  • Comment by: Julie Marie

    21 07/14/07 10:17 AM | Comment Link |

    When talking about the unknowable mysteries of the great I AM, a bit of humility is in order. As long as we are walking this earth, none can claim to have the God Thing nailed. This is one reason I am surprised the Pope made such an ungracious, arrogant statement.

    But in a sense, you are right, Kathleen…I shouldn’t be surprised. Its a throwback reaction to the years I spent as a Catholic, regarding the Pope as an authority on spiritual matters…in that light I certainly would expect him express himself with grace filled generosity. The God I knew was nothing if not Grace Filled and Generous.

    So then, this is a good reminder that the Pope is nothing more than a man, with the same prejudices, biases, and ego needs that plague all of us.

    I’m with Ben…Eschew Authority. I will let no one have spiritual authority over me ever again.

  • Comment by: Ir (Helen)

    22 07/14/07 1:15 PM | Comment Link |

    Julie Marie wrote:

    I’m with Ben…Eschew Authority. I will let no one have spiritual authority over me ever again.

    Nor will I!

    I am sooooo done with that. Never again.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    23 07/15/07 10:22 AM | Comment Link |

    Depends on what you mean by “spriritual authority.” You can take it too far and have it mean that you won’t listen to anyone, or trust anyone or talk to anyone, too, and I don’t think that’s wise.

    Like Julie Marie said above, who can understand all of the unknowable mysteries of God? So to “go it alone” is unwise, too.

    I think it’s one thing to have people you trust as authority, like a math student would trust a math teacher to knwo more than they do. But if it gets unhealthy so you turn your own brain off because they are beyond question, that’s just as dangerous.

    I had a pastor one time put it this way … I (as a pastor) am responsible to God for what I teach people, and they are responsible to god for what they believe.

    Christians are responsible to God, not people. But I believe he uses people to help us keep our heads on straight when we start getting wacky ideas.

  • Comment by: Rachel

    24 07/15/07 6:14 PM | Comment Link |

    The one & the same version that most churches recite, which says one holy catholic apostolic church. In this regard, catholic does not mean RC and apostolic does not mean following Peter as first pope until foreverland.

    Doreen, we recite the creed each week in the Episcopal Church as well. But as you pointed out, it is little “c” catholic, meaning universal, and apostolic, meaning the faith as handed down by the apostles, NOT only the church which is headed by the Bishop of Rome.

    I like to think of the Christian church as a tree. There are many different branches but they are all part of the same tree. Although it isn’t a very healthy tree when you have some branches trying to cut off the other branches!

  • Comment by: Rachel

    25 07/15/07 6:32 PM | Comment Link |

    The thing is, I do believe in the primacy of the Pope - and it seems that most of you seem to hold that belief in a contempt much greater than any that Pope Benedict might have for any of your beliefs.

    Kathleen, I can only speak for myself but I don’t feel any contempt whatsoever for your belief in the primacy of the Pope. I completely respect your convictions. I simply believe that we all - Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox alike - are part of the body of Christ. And it was my understanding that after Vatican II the RCC embraced that understanding as well. So it was rather disappointing to hear Pope Benedict’s statement because my desire is to see greater unity among ALL Christians.

    I am encouraged by the formation of this new organization: Christian Churches Together in the USA http://www.christianchurchestogether.org/ The US Conference of Catholic Bishops is a founding participant in the group. Perhaps US Catholics tend to be more ecumenical than the Church in Rome?

    Siamang, if you have peeps, kinda like Gladys Knight had pips, I’d be proud to be one of your peeps!

    (he-he) Me too!

  • Comment by: Rachel

    26 07/15/07 6:59 PM | Comment Link |

    Depends on what you mean by “spriritual authority.” You can take it too far and have it mean that you won’t listen to anyone, or trust anyone or talk to anyone, too, and I don’t think that’s wise.

    I completely agree, Mike. I think mutual accountability in community is healthy.

  • Comment by: Keith

    27 07/16/07 7:41 AM | Comment Link |

    I’m just looking out for my peeps. The Pope just said that their churches aren’t real.

    Thanks, Siamang … the Pope is making a group-version of the true Christian argument. It allows the RC church to distance itself from others. Speaking of RC, what is the pope’s stance on its status as a true cola. IMO, if there is such a thing as a false cola it is Diet Rite. No salvation from bad aftertaste lies within its can.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    28 07/16/07 8:20 AM | Comment Link |

    And what does that make me, a Mt dew drinker? An acolaist?

  • Comment by: Mike O

    29 07/16/07 8:23 AM | Comment Link |

    Actually, I believe in colas, I just don’t adhere to their tastes. So I guess I’m more of a colagnostic … which actually sounds like an uncomfortable medical treatment now that I see it in writing.

  • Comment by: Rachel

    30 07/16/07 8:25 AM | Comment Link |

    So I guess I’m more of a colagnostic … which actually sounds like an uncomfortable medical treatment now that I see it in writing.

    LOL!

  • Comment by: Stephan

    31 07/16/07 12:29 PM | Comment Link |

    Keith, I agree that Diet Rite is a false cola, but only 7-Up is the un-cola. Never had it. Never will.

  • Comment by: Walking Through the Forest | Ebay Selling Tips

    32 07/16/07 12:46 PM | Comment Link |

    [...] the comments following the article about how the Pope has reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, and said that other [...]

  • Comment by: Rachel

    33 07/16/07 6:27 PM | Comment Link |

    Here are a few opinion columns about the Pope’s statement that were posted on the God’s Politics blog:

    Rose Marie Berger: What the Latin Mass Means to Me

    Tony Jones: Caught Between the Apostle Peter and a Hard Place

  • Comment by: Julie Marie

    34 07/18/07 8:03 AM | Comment Link |

    Depends on what you mean by “spriritual authority.” You can take it too far and have it mean that you won’t listen to anyone, or trust anyone or talk to anyone, too, and I don’t think that’s wise.

    Like Julie Marie said above, who can understand all of the unknowable mysteries of God? So to “go it alone” is unwise, too.

    When I speak of spiritual authority I mean giving another human the power to tell me my earnest questions are silly, impertinent, or disrespectful and therefore shameful at best and a sacrelidge at worst.

    I’m very willing to explore my own and others questions with people who approach the questions with the understanding, as Siamang puts it, that none of us have been all the way through the forest.

    What I struggle with now is having the same patience I want for myself when I am dealing with someone who has all the answers,not just for themselves, but for me and everyone else. I’m closer to that now than I was six months ago, and I’ll keep working on it. Its important to me…because I used to be one of those big answer holders, wether I vocalized it or not. My introverted personality protected the people I came in contact with from the knowledge that I thought MY TRUTH was the only right truth, and their lives would be ever so much better if they only would come to realize it.