Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 07.11.2007 /
This is an excerpt from comments about Jim and Casper go to church posted on our Church Rater blog by Ernie Carrasco:
Casper wants to see social action, from a church, but (Jim) that is not the primary function of the church, and Casper in his humanism is erred in his expectation. (At this point I would want to know how many hospitals have been started by atheists? How many universities have been founded by atheists? How many atheists have built orphanages (that actually care for children)?). Social action is not the primary mandate of the church. The primary function of the church is to “make disciples” (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8).
I thought his questions were interesting.
Comment by: Siamang
1The first Christian hospitals weren’t built until 300 years after Christ’s death. So we’ve got some time still.
The Red Cross was founded by freethinker/deist/universalist Clara Barton.
Lance Armstrong is quite famous for his anti-cancer charity, and we know that Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett have done more than any people on the planet to fight AIDS in Africa and around the world.
We all work hard to make this world better. If atheists were the majority, and Christians were meek and timid people… they might want to keep their beliefs as silent as the folks I mention above.
I’m going to bet you didn’t know they were freethinkers, agnostics or atheists, did you?
Comment by: Eliza
2Does Benjamin Franklin count? He was a freethinker (& is said to have been a deist) & co-founded Pennsylvania Hospital (the first hospital in the US, according to that link) with a Quaker.
Comment by: Doreen Mannion
3re: Clara Barton
She was a Universalist and also a strong defender of the Christian Scientist faith. However, she wrote, “I suppose I am not what the world denominates a church woman. I lay no claims to it. I firmly believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Jesus of Nazareth, in his life and death, of suffering to save the world from sin, so far as in His power to do.” I’m not sure how that relates to being a freethinker.
While Bill Gates is an atheist, Melinda Gates decidedly is NOT. She’s Catholic, and not the NP type.
Ted Turner, whom I would consider an atheist based on what I’ve heard him say, has given millions to help people around the world also.
I would think the kind of prejudice atheists face helps limit the number of atheists who climb up the corporate ladder high enough to be able to afford to start a hospital.
Comment by: Siamang
4I got my data on Barton from wikipedia, they say she was a freethinker and deist.
I now read from other sources she was a creedless universalist. I don’t think she was a Christian Scientist… am I wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Barton
Comment by: Strappado
5How well would the hospitals be run without knowledge about godless evolution and sciences?
And how long has Atheism been a legal and viable option for people? Is it fair to compare 2000 years of monolitthic Christianity to, say 100 years of more or less religious freedom and freedom from religion?
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
6Hi Siamang,
Clara Barton never joined a Christian Scientist church, but was well-known for not attending any church. She was a vocal defender of Mary Baker Eddy, most notably in an 1908 interview in the “New York American.”
“I cannot understand why people should antagonize Christian Science. It accords perfectly with all I have ever been taught, for, like Paul, ‘I was born free’ and have always known God as love; and this is just what Christian Science teaches, so I have had nothing to give up in accepting it.”
I got this info from a handout from my Unitarian Universalism class; unfortunately it does not give the name of the publication. Maybe the handout is a copy of the “NY American” article.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
7Thanks everyone - I had a feeling you’d have some answers to Ernie’s questions!
Comment by: Rachel
8I completely disagree with Ernie. Social action is completely integral to the mission of Christ-followers. Ernie quotes the Great Commission which tells us to “go into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.” What did Jesus command? That we care for the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the sick and imprisoned, that we liberate the oppressed and seek justice for the orphan and the widow, that we love our enemies and make peace.
To be a disciple of Jesus means to be follower of Jesus, to imitate his life and obey his teachings. A disciple of Jesus is not someone who gives intellectual assent to a set of religious propositions and then proceeds to live a life of political and economic self interest. The Scripture says that we demonstrate that we are followers of Christ by our love for the least among us. To be a disciple of Jesus is to seek justice and demonstrate compassion.
Who can possibly know exactly how many humanitarian or educational organizations have been founded by Christians, atheists, deists, agnostics, etc? And even if we could keep such a scoreboard, what would be the point? I know many atheist and agnostic people who are kind, moral and compassionate and who do wonderful humanitarian work. My own task as a Christ follower is to seek to follow the loving and giving example of my Master, not to try and compare myself with others.
Comment by: Rachel
9Another thought…If I had guess which institution has built the most hospitals, schools, orphanages and so on, I would guess it would be the Roman Catholic Church. It has probably fed, clothed, educated and nursed more people than any single institution in the history of the planet. I has also been responsible for great violence and repression, including the Crusades and the Inquisition. Like any huge, powerful and wealthy institution, it has great potential to do good and great potential to do evil. As does every individual.
BTW, I recently read Failing America’s Faithful by Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, the eldest daughter of Bobby Kennedy. The book gave me a lot of insight into the RCC from the perspective of a progressive Catholic who both loves her church and criticizes and challenges it. It was an interesting read.
Comment by: Matt Casper
10Ernie made the same mistake many “humble” believers make, thinking that because atheists typically don’t slather our names all over our accomplishments, we haven’t accomplished anything.
When Jesus healed the leper, he didn’t say, “Here take this ‘Healed by Jesus’ shirt, and make sure they all know it was me who made you better!”
So my question is this: how altruistic is helping people when it’s also a major promotional vehicle…?
I think of what I saw at Willow Creek: a film of neatly pressed Bill Hybels and his salon-fresh wife, “helping the kids in Africa…” and in my mind’s eye, I can see the PR people lining up sick kids to have their picture taken with this paragon of altruism.
Mother Theresa didn’t schedule photo ops, did she?
Comment by: Mike O
11The flip side, though, is that Christians get a bad rap (OK, maybe a justified rap) for not being altruistic, too. Is it so wrong to have evidence to the contrary?
The first time I thought of that, it had to do with football players doing the “Ijustwanttothankmylordnsaviourjesuschrist” thing on camera. At first it bothered me, but then I thought, “what if no one ever saw a Christian in that profession making that kind of money? Wouldn’t that make it seem like Christians aren’t in that position making that kind of money?”
I guess I said all that to say this … as long as you’re not doing it for publicity, it’s OK to get publicity.
Comment by: Rachel
12I love it, Matt!
In fact, sometimes Jesus specifically said to people, “Don’t tell anybody!”
Comment by: Laura M.
13Mike, when I read this it sounds to me like you’re saying it is important for people to see that Christians can become football players and make a lot of money, or at least become celebrities/famous and make a lot of money.
If this is what you meant I am curious as to why you think it is important that people see this?
Comment by: Doreen Mannion
14I think it’s important for people to see that others can become whatever our culture deems “famous” and not abandon their faith.
Comment by: berwanger
15re: Clara Burton
The Red Cross was founded on the 17th of February 1863 in Switzerland by an initiative of Henry Dunant.
You can find out for yourselves what his religious convictions were, but don’t be surprised…