Posted by Siamang on: 07.30.2007 /
I was having an interesting discussion with a friend of mine about religion. She’s an atheist, and she’d been discussing the issue with her brother, a Catholic. They were both rasied nonobservant and are culturally Jews.
She described with some level of peeved bemusement the discussion between them. She’s begun to speak up about her beliefs recently, and she described a maddening discussion (as only sibling discussions can be) where her brother was pressuring her about her beliefs.
He was talking about how the Church is great for him and his wife and children, how it gives them a sense of community and purpose, and togetherness. But when she asked him about specific supernatural beliefs, she said he didn’t really commit to them. She said, “so you believe in the virgin birth?” She asked him question after question about the specific supernatural tenents of the Church… But he glossed over them and kept returning to ideas like community, values, togetherness. The things the Church provides.
She said to me, “Why can’t you do something with your family to do the togetherness thing, and do charity work and stuff like that… why make it a church if you don’t believe the church stuff?”
She expressed exasperation that her brother didn’t believe the supernatural ideas any more than she did, yet he was down on her for being an atheist!
In another instance, she has a friend who’s currently an agnostic, but was planning to convert to Judaism for her wedding.
The phrase “planning to convert” struck me as the wierdest phrase I had ever heard. What COULD THAT POSSIBLY mean? “I currently don’t believe in a God, but I plan to!”
Obviously it means “join a Temple”. But it’s clear the difference between “converting” and “converting”.
Is this what people mean when they say that “belief in belief” is part of the cultural experience of religion? The idea that “it’s good to join a church” even if you don’t believe in the “church” part of church?
-Siamang
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Comment by: Christina
1 07/30/07 1:51 PM | Comment Link |What do you mean by the “church” part of church? Of you mean the community, fellowship and mission (i.e. stuff like food pantries) then yeah. That’s part of the cultural experience for me and I assume for others such as Barack Obama (I heard him at my church’s National church meeting this past June talking about being raised by his mom who was essentially agnostic and then making the “choice”-not epiphany-to walk down the aisle at his church to commit to being a christian).
Comment by: Christina
2 07/30/07 2:26 PM | Comment Link |I guess another way I might describe it as faith (in the supernatural/or God depending on your point of view) without substance (support for others, etc.) is nothing and therefore not worth believing in.
Comment by: Stephan
3 07/31/07 8:06 AM | Comment Link |Siamang, I believe in Catholicism and Judaism “converting” is a ceremony more than it is a decision one makes, so “planning to convert” would be something like scheduling a time to meet with the priest and formally declare one’s change of beliefs.
Comment by: Siamang
4 07/31/07 9:30 AM | Comment Link |Doesn’t the phrase seem really odd to you, though?
Esp if someone is agnostic, and then says, “but I’m planning to convert to Judaism.” I understand that in a cultural setting, it’s all just ritual and ceremony… but .. really doesn’t that say it all? That you can “convert” to a religion by signing a form or waving some incense or taking a bath?
Or even, yikes, cutting off a bit of skin…
Sorry, my brain just hurts with the vast gulf between what should be a spiritual and emotional process, and the lumbering physical rituals that are meant to symbolize them.
And in this case, specifically, the focus on the ritual to (make up for?) the complete and utter nonexistence of a spiritual change.
Comment by: Stephan
5 07/31/07 10:04 AM | Comment Link |Siamang, I agree that this process is contrived and artificial, and often is done just so someone can get married in the right church or have their child baptized. No real beliefs have changed, but formalities are followed so someone can appear to be of the right faith.
Comment by: Rachel
6 08/1/07 8:49 AM | Comment Link |Siamang, I wonder which branch of Judaism this woman is planning to join, because both Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism do not necessarily require belief in a divine being. I’d be willing to bet she is converting to one of those two branches. If that is the case, I think her conversion could be understood as a public and official commitment to practice Jewish traditions along with her husband and to pass those traditions on to their future children. In that context, the primary concern is with the preservation of cultural identity, not with adherence to religious dogma.
Comment by: Rachel
7 08/1/07 9:25 AM | Comment Link |Also - remember that in Jewish tradition, a child is considered Jewish if he or she is born of a Jewish mother. If this woman chooses not to convert to Judaism, ie. formally adopt a Jewish cultural identity, then any future children she and her husband have will not be considered Jewish. This would no doubt be an unacceptable loss to the husband and his family, who are members of a group which has struggled for thousands of years simply to survive. So the primary concern is with preventing what is seen as a type of cultural genocide, not with insisting that individuals adopt specific supernatural religious beliefs. During this period of preparation for her conversion, she is most likely being educated about Jewish history, symbols, holidays, etc. so she has the knowledge necessary to carry out her commitment.
Comment by: Siamang
8 08/2/07 9:17 AM | Comment Link |Rachel… thanks for the insight and perspective. This makes me wonder, though:
Can’t THEY convert?
I guess I just don’t undertand this mysterious power that “conversion” seems to carry. It’s so powerful that a woman converting can automagically make her children Jewish, but raising them Jewish cannot?!?!
It just seems like a big ponzi scheme…. designed to pull in the most members. Get people to join right when they’re having their own kids and the mother is most focussed on nesting.
In the examples above, the Catholic brother included, the whole thing revolves around when people are having children.
Church as nest.
I’ve heard some friends talking about that as well: “Oh, it’ll be so good for your kids to have that structure.”
And the wierd… the really wierd part is that the father saying this was saying it about HIS church to another father who was Jewish!
So it wasn’t his beliefs, it wasn’t his cultural identity, it was just sold on the “good for the kids” factor.
Luckily the dad was (half?) kidding. But I think the sentiment was there.
These are really great fathers I’m talking about, who are really great with their kids, and they’re bright people.
But religions just bewilder me sometimes. Their rules seem completely arbitrary… and sometimes I feel like I’m the only one who sees these things as a hook to get folks to join up.
A “hook” that has nothing that I can see specifically to do with any beliefs about a Creator.
Comment by: Julie
9 08/3/07 11:12 AM | Comment Link |Weird, I was just continuing this discussion with my brother on our cousins email list, and here I click over to the blog and find myself faced with it again!
I have to say that the discussion has continued, and now the issue is more that I totally get my brother’s need to believe in a God and even his need for community. I get it.
But why THAT community? He’s a Catholic. Can you really believe in a vague God and then belong to an institution that teaches your kids about a very specific God? Can you really believe that your vague God does not have problems with human sexuality, and then pay money to an organization that doesn’t want us to use birth control?
And on and on….
His wife is Catholic and he doesn’t care, so he just made the jump. He takes what he likes from the Church. It’s not so hard to understand, I suppose. But I just could never square myself with it. Maybe that’s because I know how much better it is to have a relationship with someone who agrees with me.
Then again, my partner has big money issues–like he’s horrible with it. So I guess we all have our issues or our deal breakers!
Comment by: Siamang
10 08/3/07 12:41 PM | Comment Link |Buy more legos!
I was wondering if you’d stop by, since you gave me the idea for the post.
Your brother’s position makes sense, I can see it happening. It’s not what I’d choose, but I can see how it has its advantages.
Comment by: Julie
11 08/3/07 2:57 PM | Comment Link |It’s not what I’d choose, either.
My brother has always been more conservative than me.
I think there’s a certain level of wanting to conform in his decision, and in the way I live my life, there’s always a certain amount of rebellion. I think he wants to fit in, and I want to believe I’m smarter than everyone else.
But I’m not smarter than everyone else, as proven that I have chosen a man who spends all his cash on Legos as my life partner!
Well, I may not be smarter than everyone else, but I do have more Legos now than ANYone else.
Comment by: Julie
12 08/3/07 2:58 PM | Comment Link |I meant, “as proven by the fact that…”
Comment by: Julie
13 08/3/07 2:58 PM | Comment Link |Wow. I’m sooo NOT smarter than everyone else!
Comment by: Rachel
14 08/3/07 4:19 PM | Comment Link |Well, I think that within Jewish tradition converting and raising her kids as Jewish is basically the same thing. Jews don’t proselytize and they don’t believe in hell, so no one is threatening her with some eternal judgment if she doesn’t do this. There must be a reason why she wants to make this choice. Perhaps to her it is a beautiful and joyful decision. I tried to do some online study yesterday to learn more about conversion to Judaism but to an outsider it is a bit confusing. I wish this woman was available to share with us what conversion means to her.
Comment by: Julie
15 08/3/07 5:44 PM | Comment Link |She’s not available, but since she’s my friend, I can tell you it’s just that her partner is Jewish and it’s important to him.
Same for my brother. Catholicism is important to his wife, and he simply doesn’t care one way or the other, which is the legacy of being brought up agnostic.
When my brother was baptized, my mother was a bit horrified. And my brother said, “I don’t see how a little water changes anything.” He said it to placate my mom, but she was even MORE horrified that he went through with this ceremony without believing in it. He’s admittedly going through the motions to keep the peace in the family.
I really think a lot of people do this. It’s so hard to find the right partner, after all. Years of lonliness or lack of sex might make one amenable to a religious husband or wife.
For myself, years with a religious partner made me understand that only atheists need apply from now on. I think there’s more to it than simply a little water. As I’m sure has been discussed on here, the tendency to believe in faith over reason, the tendency to think your group is better than anyone else’s, the clinging to ancient superstitions–all of these are complete anathema to me and there’s just no compromising on any of it in my opinion. I know better now. As far as I can see, these are basic differences in outlook that go deeper than just a book or some pretty windows in a church.
But my brother just doesn’t feel that way. He met a pretty girl who was nice to him and wanted to have his kids. They get along famously, and for him the pretty windows are enough.
I think it’s the same for my friend. She also made a comment that Jews never bothered her, but she can’t deal with Christians. Unfortunately, I didn’t get her to elaborate on this!
Um…to be totally crass, it doesn’t hurt to be Jew in Hollywood, either!
Comment by: Mike O
16 08/15/07 9:45 AM | Comment Link |Siamang said in #8
Preach it, brother!
I cannot believe the gulf I see between teh Cristian “religion” and a truly Christian “lifestyle” according to what the Bible actualy says about things. I am FOREVER stumbling across beliefs I hold that aren’t necessarily wrong, but they also aren’t necessarily biblical. For example, the cultural phenomenon of “going to church.” Somehow, I don’t think what we have in mind is what the first disciples had in mind.
There’s nothing wrong with rituals and rules if they’re correctly understood as “man’s attempt to please God.” But I think what happens many times is they are thought to be “God’s mandates” when really they’re just man’s methods.
Mark 7:7 is one of my favorite verses (I have many) which describes this exact religious “trap” that Christians are prone to fall into:
It’s not the rules that are wrong … they are a means to an end. It’s the “doctrinizing” of them where we go wrong.
Comment by: Mike O
17 08/15/07 9:57 AM | Comment Link |Julie marie said in #9:
I’m sure you’ve all heard it before … “going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than sitting in an oven makes you a biscuit.”
As long as everyone understands what their motives are, how is going to church and not buying into the whole thing really differ from going to a bar without being a raging alcoholic? It doesn’t make him a Christian (it may make him a Catholic, though), but if that’s what he wants to do, so be it. Maybe it’s something he’s willing to do to keep his wife happy??
If you don’t buy the message, going to church is no different than joining a club. That’s not the intent, but hey, it’s not inherently illogical.
Comment by: Mike O
18 08/15/07 10:02 AM | Comment Link |That would be a fun topic. I know it’s been done to death, but now that I see how how I act looks to non-Christians, I’m constantly on the lookout for things I do that seem normal to me, but really pisses other people off.
Comment by: Mike O
19 08/15/07 10:03 AM | Comment Link |One last comment … on the title of this blog entry. I don’t think it’s “belief in belief” at all. It’s just something to do for some people.