Posted by Siamang on: 09.25.2007 /
By Siamang
Awhile back I had a post where I said that as an artist I would refuse to work freelance on a project that I felt crossed a moral boundary for me. So I hardly can complain when two different Christian-owned print-shops refused to print a (non-confrontational) poster for an atheist group.
The poster was a selection of proposed symbols for atheism, for an atheist group to vote on. (This image isn’t the poster… I’m making a joke if you can recognize these images.)
Here’s Sastra writing on Pharyngula:
Ironic note on the poster of Atheist Symbols for the Atheist Alliance International convention: I went to have it made today, at a local shop which specializes in posters, worked happily with the designer — and then several hours later got a call to come back and pick my stuff up, no poster. They are Christians and cannot do it. Went to another place, same thing. It was simply a poster with symbols to vote on — but it was for atheists. And they are Christians. One person helpfully explained that they turned down the KKK too. So sorry. But they’re Christians.
I wanted to highlight this story, not to make a post that is standard bread-and-butter faire on atheist blogs, the “Christians behaving badly” post. But to illustrate what I’d call a positive attitude from Sastra… here’s what he has to say about the whole affair:
I live in a small city in Wisconsin, and though it’s religious it’s usually polite, and therefore usually rather private on people’s religion. The few Christians who have personally spoken to me of my being an atheist (I am “out”) were quick to reassure me that that’s fine, because tolerance, diversity, acceptance, equality and freedom of religion are all concepts which fall directly out of the teachings of Jesus. Though I recognize that as b.s., it’s still a positive approach. It’s nice.
Sheboygan county, everyone’s nice. They smile and apologize even when they throw you out.
I suspect I have gotten too used to debate forums, where even those who disagree with you are eventually forced to respect the fact that you see rational merit in your beliefs, true or false, and there’s a lot of overlap between your positions. And vice versa, when I disagree with Christians or other theists. I’ve grown to respect even some of the poor arguments, which are often quite complex underneath, or which might at least “have the heart in the right place.”
When you attempt to persuade someone to a different viewpoint, you’re forced to assume a common ground of equality, rationality, of good will, of basic similarity. “Here’s why you should want to change your mind.” You can’t just shrug and dismiss the other side with “well, I’m an atheist. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Please.”
I think that’s one of the reasons it is so important for positive arguments for atheism to be made to the general public. If we’re wrong, we’re wrong for the right reasons. We’re not The Other, to be lumped in with bigots and criminals and the Ku Klux Klan. We’re not nutcases on the fringe, denying the obvious out of perversity. We’re you’re neighbors, and we’ve usually thought about religion and morality quite a lot.
In fact, we often take religion more seriously than some of you do. We care about whether it’s true more than whether it’s useful. And that’s giving real respect to it.
-Siamang
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Comment by: Sastra
1 09/25/07 10:54 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for the thoughtful analysis, Siamang. Like you, I recognize that we all have “moral lines” we do not want to cross. What bothered me about the local businesses refusing to do the work wasn’t that they had “moral lines” per se, but that “atheism” was, in and of itself, perceived as so immoral that they could not, in good conscience, print up a poster for an atheist organization. If I owned a graphics shop, I would do posters for Sunday school and “Reasons to Accept Jesus.” Yes, I have moral reservations on the issues themselves, but they are trumped by my moral commitment to treat beliefs arrived at through honest conscience with respect. I separate support given through donations from who I do business with. The former implies approval: the latter doesn’t — except in criminal or hate group cases.
The legal issue on whether or not they can refuse people on religious grounds is less disturbing for me than the ethical issue here. It’s similar to the situation with the Boy Scouts refusing only atheists out of all the views on religion because they cannot be “good citizens.” I suspect neither shop would have refused to print a poster for another religion — but atheism, I was told, was “different.” They do not see it as an honest conclusion which they differ with: to them, it is apparently The Enemy in a way that a “false religion” is not. They classify it with the criminals and hate groups — and that should change.
I’m still going back and forth a bit on whether or not to file a formal complaint. Sometimes it seems inconsistent and cowardly not to do so: other times it seems counter-productive and ultimately pointless to do that.
Btw, I’ve been one of your fans for a long time. And you have seen the AAI symbols, you know. Late one night, we sat on the floor of a lobbyist and passed them around while we ate pizza. :)
Comment by: Siamang
2 09/25/07 11:47 AM | Comment Link |*?*
I don’t think you’re referring to me… but maybe Hemant?
Anyway, back to the issue of who someone refuses to do business with. I think we can seperate two different issues here.
One is, I think it’s acceptable not to do business that promotes something we morally oppose strongly, like the KKK. I’m not cavalier about my choices in that matter, for example, I disagree with the Boy Scouts’ positions on nonreligious members, but I don’t think I would refuse to print a banner for the Pinewood Derby.
The other thing is, obviously, we’ve been put in the wrong category by these folks. And we do need to fix that.
Here’s what I see… I don’t think any kind of formal complaint is the way to go. Too confrontational. And I think your attitude in this matter has been a good model.
Why not look at this as an opportunity? After the AAI convention is done and you’ve got some time, try to make a friend at those places. Write them a heartfelt, friendly note, and send it with a nice plant or flower display. Reiterate that you wholeheartedly support their rights to say and believe and worship in the way they think is right.
Comment by: Karen
3 09/25/07 4:07 PM | Comment Link |That’s a terrific idea, Siamang. I doubt that a formal complaint would even be viable, although I am not familiar with the specific state statutes or business codes in that area. Generally, though, a privately owned company typically has the right to refuse to do business with clients for whatever reason they choose, and there wouldn’t legally be any “harm” because there was another print shop that could (and ultimately would) do the job. It’s not like a public agency or a landlord where there are laws that say they can’t discriminate based on things like race or religion.
You make a good point. When you mentioned debate forums I thought you were going to go into a rant about the angry and uncivil Internet. That’s honestly not been my experience, and I’m tired of hearing it from so many people. I love that you point out the positive aspects and the respect that is so often the end result of online dialog.
Comment by: Sastra
4 09/25/07 5:30 PM | Comment Link |Siamang wrote:
Ah, yes .. my bad, so sorry. I did think you were Hemant. Of course, there are worse things than being mistaken for Hemant, I think :)
Unlike Karen, I do not think this is a terrific idea. On the contrary, I found it very disturbing — so disturbing I had to sit back, take some breaths, and seriously ask myself “why?”
First of all, I really don’t see this as a situation where the people involved just need to get acquainted with an atheist, find out how nice we can be, surprise their expectations. As I mentioned elsewhere, I have known these people for about 20 years. We’ve always been friendly, we’ve volunteered for some of the same causes. They recognize me, know that I’m “nice,” a normal part of the community. I walked into their store relaxed and friendly, had a pleasant, happy discussion over styles and colors of posters with the graphics artist, made some jokes, laughed a bit, cheerful “byes” all around when I left. When she called I greeted her by name, so pleased to hear from her. They don’t think atheists can’t be nice.
They rejected this work because atheism itself is wicked, and they feel as Christians they cannot deal with promoting wickedness. There is no being nice enough. Bottom line, this isn’t about finding common ground as human beings. It was about a total refusal to consider the merits of another point of view on religion, as an honest philosophical conclusion, just like theirs is. The problem is pointing out the common ground philosophically — and I’m not sure their form of religion is open to even attempting this. Their refusal to serve me as a normal customer had nothing to do with me. It was because they could not contaminate themselves with associating with evil. The dismissal was friendly, civil, gentle, and smug. So sorry, but it’s against our principles.
I understand their point of view, and why they think the way they do, given their theological commitments. But I am not going to excuse bigotry as one of their principles. I am not going to grant merit to a theology which divides people so harshly, and denies the common ground. That wouldn’t be tolerance, it would be an abandonment of my principles, as a humanist.
I went back angry and upset, and did not conceal this, though I hope I behaved with quiet dignity and restraint. I told them this was bigotry, and they should be ashamed of themselves. Ashamed. Then I left. That is probably all I will do in response — I agree that filing suit is probably a poor option, for several reasons. When I see them around town I will be civil, but cool.
But to go back with flowers? With a happy smile, as if they conferred a favor on me, throwing me out? That would not say “I support your right to say and believe and worship in the way they think is right.” It would say “I support your right to find atheism so disgusting that you cannot associate with atheists even in a business capacity. Thank you for blurring the distinction between business transactions and charitable donations. Thank you for reminding me that Americans lump atheists together with the Ku Klux Klan and fringe nut jobs.”
Thank you for reminding me to keep my place, and not be so uppity in thinking y’all would go against morals and see me as an equal. Thankee m’am, thankee. Ah needs to learn better. Ah shore do respect you standin’ for morals as a Christian should.
No, no, no.
Bad idea. I respect them as people and individuals. I respect their right to believe and worship in the way they think is right. I respect their right to not compromise their ethics and take on jobs that they find severely morally wrong. But I do NOT — not respect that they choose to treat atheism as ethically wicked. Mistaken. Yes. But not beyond the pale. Not deserving of being refused the basic common decency of ordinary service — because they are Christians.
Comment by: Stephan
5 09/26/07 9:10 AM | Comment Link |Sastra, I’m sorry about what happened. From their perspective I can understand it, as Siamang can, but I don’t necessarily agree with it.
I am curious if they would do business with you otherwise. If you just ordered business cards from them, would they print them? If your business had nothing to do with atheism, would they reject it because of who you are?
I am curious because I believe there is a difference between rejecting you as a person and rejecting the content of your printing work. I am often told by atheists that they do not reject me as a person, but they reject what I believe. Can you, as an atheist, allow this to go both ways?
Comment by: Karen
6 09/26/07 10:39 AM | Comment Link |Okay, I missed the part where you already had a good relationship with them and they know you’re a good guy. In that case, I don’t blame you for being offended that they would not do the print job and I’m glad you called them out on it, politely, when you returned after their refusal of your job.
No, they probably are not open to considering atheism - or another religion, for that matter - as an honest conclusion.
They are likely taught that, indeed, atheism is wicked, is devised and promoted by satan himself, and proactively tries to lure Christians away from belief. This is the common belief in conservative evangelical churches and they would have a very hard time disregarding that belief. That’s why they don’t want to be part of the preparations for the conference, even in so oblique a way as printing up materials.
It’s unfortunate, but this kind of thing will happen until and unless hard-line religious belief becomes more tolerant of other viewpoints. I’m not holding my breath on that one.
Comment by: Sastra
7 09/26/07 3:02 PM | Comment Link |Stephan wrote:
I’m not sure, but I would guess that yes, if I went in there again and asked them to print some brochures for Meals on Wheels or personal cards or something they would make a show of being happy to do it. I don’t think they felt that the problem was contact with an atheist (and refusing any kind of service for that reason would be more clearly illegal.)
The problem is not that they reject what I believe, but that they find what I believe to be so unacceptable that it falls outside their ability to provide the normal, ordinary courtesy of a marketplace relationship and pass no judgment on the content of the work. In the retail and service areas, you assume that you will be dealing with people different than yourself, and helping them or their organization say or do things you would not say or do. You’re not providing emotional support. Catering a wedding doesn’t mean you approve of the marriage, or the religion. You only break that mutual contract when the views are so extreme there is no possibility of retaining your professional neutrality. Even neutrality is too much approval.
If I owned a print shop, I would of course print posters and brochures for churches and political groups and causes I disagreed with. I would only draw the line for the truly outrageous — the KKK, the Nazis. Or hardcore porn or criminal activity. To put atheism in this category is unfair, ignorant, bigoted, and insulting.
I did not feel the insult was to me, personally. Which makes it both easier, and worse.
Karen wrote:
Oh, both places told me that they would willingly print work for other religions. It’s only atheism which is singled out (though come to think of it I didn’t ask if they would do work for a Wiccan group, I only asked if they as Christians would refuse a Jewish group.)