Posted by Mike O on: 09.27.2007 /
This week as I was doing my devotions (I like to read a couple of chapters a day), I ran across a passage that really seemed to apply to my time spent with atheists. It’s the story of Paul and King Agrippa.
Here’s the setup … Paul, a former Pharisee himself, is being persecuted by the jews who want to have him killed. Starting in Acts 21:27 and going through chapter 26 (I’ll spare you the details!), you find a series of events where the jews are trying to kill him. He is eventually brought before the Sanhedrin (Acts 22:30), and things escalate to the point where he finally appeals to Caesar (Acts 25:11) and is brought before King Agrippa.
Beginning in Acts chapter 26, you find a detailed account of what Paul said to the King (See below - I didn’t want it to get in the way, so I posted it at the end if you wish to read it). And when Paul finished speaking, Agrippa said this:
Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
I read that, and it struck me how similar that situation is to this! I may be wrong, but I would be really surprised if the atheists who read this blog don’t make that same statement - at least internally - when listening to us Christians. “Do you think that in such a short time you can pursuade me to be a Christian?”
And I would be equally surprised if the Christians who read this blog - in fact, Christians everywhere - don’t think we can do it! Now, don’t get me wrong! There’s nothing wrong with Christians trying to pursuade atheists, and vice versa. But let’s be honest! Do I reallly think that in such a short time I can pursuade you to be a Christian? You’ve never even met me!
And the converse is also true - do you really think that in such a short time you can pursuade me to be an atheist? Highly doubtful!
But what really struck me, other than Agrippa’s question, was Paul’s response. Paul was in the business of pursuading people. He was a great preacher, a great leader, and many many people were pursuaded to follow Christ by his teaching! But not Agrippa. And how did Paul respond?
29Paul replied, “Short time or long—I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”
He prayed.
I believe Paul saw the limitations of his ability to pursuade and put it into God’s hands. I believe he was essentially saying, “I guess not, but I pray you do become a Christian!”
Do I think I can pursuade someone to be a Christian? Yes, I think so - if they’re interested and searching for answers. But many here aren’t searching. Many here are perfectly happy without Christ. And if that’s the case, I know I can’t pursuade you. There is no clever argument I can make or words I can use to make you become a Christian.
But I can pray. And I do.
Since I read this passage this week, seeing Paul’s attitude towards Agrippa, I want that to be my attitude towards atheists … Do I think that in such a short time, I can pursuade you to be a Christian? Short time or long - I pray that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am.
That’s reasonable, isn’t it?
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For those who are interested, here’s the entire dialogue between Paul and King Agrippa as recorded in Acts 26:
Acts 26
1Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You have permission to speak for yourself.” So Paul motioned with his hand and began his defense: 2″King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews, 3and especially so because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies. Therefore, I beg you to listen to me patiently.4″The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. 5They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee. 6And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our fathers that I am on trial today. 7This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. O king, it is because of this hope that the Jews are accusing me. 8Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?
9″I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.
12″On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15″Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
” ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16′Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
19″So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. 21That is why the Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22But I have had God’s help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23that the Christ[b] would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
24At this point Festus interrupted Paul’s defense. “You are out of your mind, Paul!” he shouted. “Your great learning is driving you insane.”
25″I am not insane, most excellent Festus,” Paul replied. “What I am saying is true and reasonable. 26The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. 27King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.”
28Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
29Paul replied, “Short time or long—I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”
30The king rose, and with him the governor and Bernice and those sitting with them. 31They left the room, and while talking with one another, they said, “This man is not doing anything that deserves death or imprisonment.”
32Agrippa said to Festus, “This man could have been set free if he had not appealed to Caesar.”
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
1So Mike, are you saying you actually apply what you read in the Bible to your life? ;-)
I think the key may be this: Christians who get bent out of shape if others say “Thanks but no thanks” are no fun to be around. Christians who say “Ok - your choice” are much better company. It’s fine with me if they hope I’ll return to believing like I used to - what they hope is up to them. As long as they can relax rather than getting upset if they don’t get the results from me they wanted.
And you seem able to be relaxed and friendly even though we are still not Christians - I’m very appreciative that you can be that way.
Comment by: Mike O
2Ancient Jewish secret!
Comment by: Stephan
3As someone who is not always “relaxed and friendly” I appreciate and try to emulate those of you who are. I keep a copy of St. Francis’ prayer taped to my monitor and try to recite it a few times a day. The key phrase I try to apply here is, “Grant that I may not so much seek… to be understood and to understand.”
Comment by: Eliza
4You betcha, that seems totally reasonable!
But, Mike O, please don’t feel insulted if we atheists don’t return the favor and pray for you to become like us…
:-)
Comment by: Eliza
5I woke up this morning with this question: How do the ideas of “free will” and “God answers every prayer (with Yes, No, or Wait)” fit together?
(Not that all C’s necessarily believe that every prayer is answered with Yes, No, or Wait - but that’s what was taught in the Lutheran class I took. And, of course, not that we can know God-if-he-exists’s thoughts, purpose, intent, etc.)
If humans have free will, how would God respond to prayers to change a person’s mind or actions?
Would God (have to, need to, choose to) limit himself to providing new experiences (whether spiritual or material, whether internal or external to the person) & simply hope the person decides freely to change? Or would God go ahead & make that change in belief, thought, or action occur?
Comment by: Stephan
6Eliza, it depends on who you ask. If you ask a Calvinist they would tell you that God chooses who is going to be saved, and that if it is His will you will become a Christian whether you like it or not. If God does not choose you, it sucks to be you.
I take the approach that God does not ever mess with free will in the sense that He changes people’s minds for them. I think He may bring other influences into people’s lives, and maybe help them become more sensitive to certain influences, but in the end He allows everyone to choose for themselves. So a prayer for someone to become a Christian would not cause God to change their mind, but it may cause Him to direct other Christians to be a positive role model in their lives, or help them to notice His working in their life and the lives around them. I believe God can encourage the circumstances that would cause someone to become a Christian, but in the end it is still their choice whether or not to follow.
I’m not sure how that fits into the yes/no/wait continuum, but maybe everything isn’t as simple as that.
Comment by: Mike O
7This is a topic where multiple views are supportable by scripture. So I’ll start by saying I don’t know for sure, but I think it’s both.
Here’s how I’ve put the pieces together.
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I had a pastor teach one time about God’s “perfect” or “sovereign” will, and God’s “permissive” will. I think there’s both.
If you believe the Bible, you have to believe in God’s perfect will. A great example (albeit just a tad negative!) is Pharoah and the whole “Moses leading the Hebrew Children out of Egypt” story. God “spilled the beans” 400 years in advance that it would happen.
It wasn’t open for negotiation. Furthermore, when the ten plagues were actually going on, it says that God hardened Pharoah’s heart so that he would not let them go (this would be the setup for a pivotal event in jewish history, the crossing of the Red Sea on dry ground.)
So, whether you “like” God for doing that or not, this story is in the bible, and Christians (and Jews) do hold it to be true and indicative of at least part of the nature of God. Whether or not this constitutes a reason why you aren’t a follower is a seperate question.
But then we also have stories that show god’s “permissive” will
I’m chosing this one because it also involves the same Hebrews that had just been delivered out of Egypt - it can’t be argued that God did it one way for a time, and another way for another time - these both happened at the same general time.
The Israelites had been baaaaad children of God, and he was about to smite them, until Moses stepped in and prayed for them:
Apparently this one was open for negotiation!
There are similar examples in the new testament, which may be applied more directly to “Christianity,” but these stories are much clearer and not so open to interpretation. If the stories are true at all, God did it both ways.
Comment by: Mike O
8One more thought on that … and this may just be opinion - I haven’t studied it to make sure.
But my thought on it is when God is dealing in an impersonal level (orchestrating a nation, famines, blessings, what have you), his will seems to be more non-negotiable. But when he’s dealing on a personal level (like smiting his people because they REALLY pissed him off this time!), Moses was able to “talk him down,” as it were.
I think that God’s permissive will makes the details negotiable within an overall perfect, non-negotiable plan.
BICBW.
Comment by: Richard Wade
9Mike, I’m perplexed by the presumptions you make about people wanting to convince others to be like them. Is that your primary agenda? If that’s the primary agenda of most or all Christians, then that’s why they’re such a pain in the neck. They’d be a lot more popular if they put all that effort into trying to be like Christ rather than trying to get me to be like them. Why is it so important to you that I be like you? Wherever you fall on the God’s will/free will spectrum it doesn’t seem to be much of your business what I think.
One presumption you’re making is about atheists. I don’t think there are many atheists here or many anywhere else who “want to persuade you (or any other Christian) to be an atheist.” Most couldn’t care less what others think. I and most of the atheists I know only want one thing from Christians or any other religious people: Believe and worship whatever you see fit but please stay out of five rooms: somebody else’s bedroom, the public classroom, the courtroom, the operating room and the laboratory. Other than those trespassings we’re fine.
If it’s still important for you to persuade me it wouldn’t take much time at all. Perhaps a few seconds. Just bring something more convincing, substantial or impressive than a lower jaw going up and down. Jesus did it for Thomas, I’ve been told. But then when I was told that, what I saw was just another jawbone going up and down.
If God exists, I think he wants me exactly as I am, a skeptical hardass who finds and exposes deception, misconception and presumption in non-religious issues all the time. I know I have helped a lot of people by being the guy who says, “Wait a minute, I think you’re making an assumption, or you’re jumping to a conclusion.” If that has to include my not being convinced of his existence by wavering jawbones, I think he’s okay with that. I don’t have an agenda to make everybody as skeptical as I am. I just challenge each incident, not the mindset of the people involved. That’s none of my business.
I’ll treat your response with respect but I’d appreciate it coming from your own mind rather than some dead Jewish guy who wrote with a feather. Please don’t take my remarks as being snarky or disrespectful. Quite the opposite is my intention. Perhaps I’m in a bit of a mood tonight, but I think that questioning background presumptions like “everybody is out to persuade everybody else to be like them” is important in a forum such as this.
And I hope nobody tries the “you’re just trying to get us to think like you” argument. No, I’m not. Just question that one presumption that “persuasion to one’s own point of view” is the prime agenda or even a desirable agenda.
Comment by: Mike O
10You know what, Richard? I actually like your response! I think you’ve misinterpreted my intent, but there’s some history behind why I wrote/write what I did/do. I am sick of thinking it’s my job to pursuade anybody to do or think anything. It’s not! It’s my job to tell. And if you don’t believe me, I need to learn to be OK with that. And that is not typical “Christian” thinking.
I’ll write more later, I need to go to work. But I just wanted to at least respond and say this much so you know I respect what you wrote!
Comment by: Richard Wade
11Thank you Mike, and I respect what you do here on this website. I’m sorry if I latched onto the wrong intent in your first comment. It was early in the morning after a long night after a long day after a long week, and the caffeine may have made me a little reactionary. Now I need some more. Coffee…..cofffeeeee…..
Comment by: Mike O
12Richard said …
No, my primary agenda is a) to understand people I never took the time to understand (atheists) until a little over a year ago, and b) to help atheists understand Christians. We all know there are things about the other guy that irritate us. When I write what Christians think or do, it’s from my perspective, and my purpose isn’t to try to make you think I’m right, but rather to give atheists insight into what Christians think like, and maybe some of the background. After all, right or wrong, Christians think and behave the way we do for reasons, not all of which are misguided - merely different than your own. For example the whole idea of proselytizing, or “persuading” to use the current topic’s terminology, is something we believe we are taught to do. We don’t do it out of some ego thing, we actually believe we’re supposed to.
Well, first of all, popularity should have nothing to do with it. As I said above, we believe we have a sort of mandate to let the world know “the truth.” So we try to do that. Right or wrong, it’s who we are. I’m not trying to justify it, I’m just trying to give some insight into how we think - what drives us and why. it’s not all twisted and manipulative. Oh, and we’re not trying to get you to be like us (at least, I’m not!). We’re trying to show people that following Christ is the right thing to do. Again, right or wrong, that’s our perspective.
I’m interested in what you think, though. It’s not my business to change it, but I do want to at least understand it.
That wasn’t my intent at all. One thing I’ve learned to do here is to turn the tables on myself and look at it from the atheistic perspective. For me to try to persuade an atheist who isn’t interested in being a Christian would be like an atheist trying to persuade me to be an atheist. I know unlikely it would be for an atheist to persuade me to “switch sides,” and from that I can at least imagine (by comparison) what it’s like for an atheist when Christians try to do that to them. That’s all I was trying to say there.
Oh, if only Christians could understand that simple point!!! Less talk, more walk. Put up or shut up. Is that what you’re saying?
You’re right. I think he wants you exactly as you are … a skeptical hardass who finds and exposes deception, misconception and presumption. What’s wrong with that?? Guys like you help guys like me cut through the crap and focus on what Christ really wants us to live like. If you ever became a Christian, you’d still probably be a skeptical hardass. :)
Comment by: Eliza
13Stephan and Mike O, thanks for addressing my question. (I saw your responses yesterday at work, but couldn’t read them carefully, or respond, there.)
I think the explanations you gave had come up at some point in the past 1.5 yrs here (or on the Discussion Board), including mention of the specific scriptural examples Mike O gave above, but I had forgotten.
(Can’t find a way to phrase my thought about how handy it seems to have God be inscrutable, & able to change his mind; in part because it seems rude, and in part because a sentient deity would have those characteristics, n’est-ce pas?)(Which also brings to mind my question when people point to the part in the NT which says God can’t lie. Hmmm, relying on someone’s word that he can’t lie to determine that he can’t lie, that’s circular…and there can be no reason that an omnipotent couldn’t lie, if he can do everything else, right? But I digress.)
Nice exchange, Richard Wade & Mike O. I was going to stick up for Mike O. by saying that given his belief in Christ, his hopes and actions should be in alignment with the Great Commission - but Mike O. said it better than that.
:-)
Comment by: Richard Wade
14Mike, I am honored by the time you spent in your thorough and gracious answer. I feel confident that I understand you better and that you understand me better.
While we’re on the topic of proselytizing, I wouldn’t want to “de-convert” you, (if that is actually a word) even if I could. I want you to remain a Christian who is walking a positive and inclusive path that I respect. For there to be peace between believers and skeptics we need peacemakers on the “inside.” Christians are more likely to listen to you than to me when you tell them that you’ve found that not all atheists are (fill in the awful stereotype), and atheists are more likely to listen to me than to you when I tell them that I’ve found that not all Christians are (fill in the awful stereotype). I spend about as much time challenging the prejudice of atheists against Christians as I do challenging the vice-versa.
It’s kind of like chiseling a tunnel through a stone mountain of ignorance and suspicion. We work from opposite sides of the mountain to meet in the middle. Meeting in the middle isn’t about compromise: it’s about combined accomplishment. Neither of our teams could go the whole way through, but by working together in opposite directions we make the mountain no longer a barrier.
Comment by: Mike O
15I don’t get your point? Tell you what - don’t worry about sounding rude, just say it - I know you mean no harm.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at … where did lying come into it?
Comment by: Mike O
16Richard, I can’t tell you how much that means! That’s the most encouraging thing anyone has said to me in a long time!
Thank you!