Posted by Mike O on: 10.25.2007 /
I found this article out on usatoday.com today. It completely supports what we’re doing here, and I agree with much that the author had to say. But I wonder if atheists realize just how difficult this is for Christians to do. The author says,
Although I do not believe in God, I have no interest in telling anyone else what he should or should not believe. I am more interested in dialogue, and I hope that conversation will get us to respect and understanding. I cannot see dialogue happening with someone who tells you that your core beliefs are wrong, so I refrain from telling anyone what to believe.
She makes it sound so simple - so obvious. And while I can agree that Christians need to do a better job of not forcing the issue, it’s just not within our paradigm to “not care” when people reject what we see as vitally important. We see eternity at stake, and you don’t. That doesn’t mean we’re right, but maybe it helps you understand why this statement is harder for Christians to accept than it is for atheists.
And she ends it with this statement -
Once we start, we might see that we have more in common than we all think. Once we all agree to disagree, once we set the rules that no side is trying to convince the other of its rightness or wrongness, once we clarify that we are simply trying to understand each other — and then move on to other topics of common interest — then the conversation about religion and its place in our society can really begin.
I don’t see anything wrong with trying to convince people of rightness or wrongness - I think that’s one difference between merely letting people think (but not caring what they think), and actually caring what people think. Caring requires more effort, but it’s worth it.
In fact, I wonder if one difference between atheists and Christians is that atheists are perfectly willing to let people think but don’t particularly care what they think, while Christians tend to care what people think but don’t particularly want to let them think.
Comment by: Siamang
1That’s a great find!
I like what she has to say, and how she says it.
Comment by: Mike O
2Yeah, I liked it, too. It just doesn’t come natural for me.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
3Mike, thanks for sharing this.
I hear what you’re saying but I have a hard time being sympathetic with Christians who can’t deal with a level playing field rule in dialog that “I don’t bug you about your beliefs being wrong and I don’t try to change your beliefs - and you don’t do those things either.”
If Christians aren’t willing to respect the wishes of non-Christians regarding dialog I don’t really understand how that can be considered ‘love’.
No analogies about snatching people who aren’t Christian from the fire or how desperately they need saving work for me because they will never go along with it unless THEY are also convinced they’re in a desperate plight. And I don’t think they will be convinced by someone they see doesn’t respect them - since respect entails listening to someone’s wishes regarding a dialog.
Anyway Mike I’ve never known you push your beliefs on someone who has indicated that’s not what they want - so I don’t think of you as a person who fails to act in a loving way in dialog.
Comment by: Karen
4Nica makes a good point, but I’m afraid that kind of requirement would leave out most of the Christians I used to hang with. They do believe they have the answer (Jesus) and further they believe it is their highest calling to tell other people about the answer.
Admitting that there might be more than one answer, or no answer, would require a huge mind-shift for these folks.
Comment by: Mike O
5Again, I’m not saying it’s right or even OK, I’m just saying “that’s why I think we do it.”
Over time more and more of us Christians are actually starting to remedy the ‘dialogue’ problem.
Comment by: Mike O
6True statement.
Hmm, I’m not sure that’s entirely true any more. We’re learning that our highest calling is to love people, but telling other people is also a high calling - with one caveat - IF they want to hear it. That’s the part a lot of us keep messing up on.
Yep, true statement. In fact, by definition, a Christian can’t say that (IMO). But since we don’t have to agree on that point to have dialogue, does it really matter what I think as long as I’m not jamming it down your throat all the time?
Comment by: Siamang
7I’m glad we’ve got more than one prominent atheist trying to solve it, too.
Comment by: benjamin ady
8Mike,
I don’t seem to have an email contact for you =(. Someone suggested I check to see if you might have any comments in regards to this post on Jacques
ciao
Benjamin
Comment by: Eliza
9Mike O, thanks for posting this. I’ve never been Christian, but (or: therefore?) I totally agree w/ your assessment of the differences between Cs & As. I addressed this, in a way, in the opening to my writeup of the last of the Lutheran religious education class series I took. (It was actually the next to last class - I have to admit not attending the very last session, in which they hoped to welcome class participants to the Lutheran church, Missouri Synod.) For some reason I can sort of imagine what it might be like to believe as a Christian & feel compelled to help people save themselves from an eternity in hell, even though I totally don’t believe/feel that way. (In fact, my actual feeling is a wish to run away from Cs who try to approach me with that help-that-feels-like-an-attack - !)
The UU church I’ve joined had an inspirational service on mutual understanding in August. The speaker was a Jewish man now involved in an Interfaith church in Seattle, who used to be the choir director in a Methodist church, which he said was quite an educational experience. From my notes from that session comes these ideas (which were part of a 20-30 minute talk so, of course, “flowed” better in context):
- He warned against superficial tolerance, which is “politically correct” but which can’t really lead to increased respect & understanding.
- He suggested approaching people of different beliefs this way: “Tell me more about your beliefs, not to convert or convince me, but so I may better understand the love that has moved you.” (OK, as I said, it sounded less woo-woo in context.)
- He referred to God/truth/universe as a diamond w/ many facets, viewing each of us as reflecting the light from a different face, & imagining that each of us sees & understands a different but valid part of the whole. (OK, I know many people won’t buy that. And some may recognize it as somewhat similar to some of what Spong writes about.)
- He suggested that what really unites us is how we act, not what we think. “Beyond what we say, what do we do?” Which seems to get back to the question which seems relevant for C’s, how do my actions reflect love, & Jesus-as-example?
Comment by: Karen
10I hope it is changing, Mike O. I haven’t been immersed in Christian circles for a few years, so perhaps things are a bit different today.
It all depends what the mindset of the Christian is, and what the mindset of the atheist is. I knew a few Christians who were very comfortable having friendships with non-Christians, and others who were very wary about it. Either they felt guilty if they were missing opportunities to witness (which tends to cut short a friendship, as I found out a couple of times myself!) or they felt fearful that bad habits would rub off on them if they spent a lot of time with unbelievers. Sometimes Christians looked down on people who had a lot of non-Christian friends and said they were “too worldly.”
Some atheists are very happy to dialogue with believers - such as all of us here! - and others are so contemptuous of belief that they only want to argue and insult Christians. Very unfortunate for all of us, I’m sorry to say.
Comment by: Anne P
11It always strikes me that Christians who are afraid to let others explore their own questions believe in a god who is too small. IF (and I know that in this context this is much too big an if, but please bear with me) God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, then he is not going to fall apart because people ask honest questions.
Comment by: Mike O
12I’m thinking of running this chain by my pastor - there are so many good insights!
I totally agree - pacifying others is somehow dishonest if it’s superficial. I don’t think we need to go around ‘picking scabs’ all the time, but sometimes it’s more respectful to have a bit of a heated exchange — IF it’s honest and respectul and not just mean and bickering.
Again, this is hard for Christians and we need to get past this! It’s OK IMO to think we’re right and to believe what we believe. After all, we do, and we don’t want to get caught in the superficial tolerance trap you just mentioned. BUT … I think you nailed something with the last part of this statement! We don’t particularly care about the love that moves you, only the love that moves us. And that’s a problem. We don’t have to think you’re right, but we do have to learn to understand where you’re coming from. Love moves you, too.
This has to be true, because we’re never going to agree on beliefs (unless someone changes position). If we’re going to be united, it has to be based on actions. I see no reason we can’t be united in our actions. Our causes may not necessarily match up, but we can be driven by the same motivation - love.
Yeah. A lot of that, for me, had to do with the way I was raised. I had a great Christian experience, but it was very one-sided. And the idea that “they can rub off on you” and feeling like I was “missing opportunities” is prevalent. It’s ingrained in our mindset. We’re not that good at forging relationships with people who aren’t Christians or at least interested in becoming Chritians. But what I thing God is showing me is that sometimes you need to just love people, regardless of whether or not they will ever agree with me (kind of referring back to what Eliza said).
I know people think that of me - I don’t care. They’re still my friends, too, but they just don’t understand what God is asking me to do here - just be friends.
This is something my parents got right - I was always allowed to question. God is big enough to handle our questions.
Comment by: Karen
13Mike O., I applaud what you are doing here tremendously - and Siamang as well, of course. All of us are learning a lot from your efforts, and I see that there’s been a huge growth over time in your willingness to learn from all perspectives.
I know where you are coming from (I think) and I’m sure it hasn’t always been easy for you to do this. In fact, it’s rare, but I think it’s becoming less rare because of pioneers like you and Siamang. I hope the people who think you are too worldly will eventually appreciate your efforts as much as we all do.