Posted by Mike O on: 11.29.2007 /
Laura M made an interesting comment on Siamang’s Stephen Matheson post a couple of days ago. She said,
As far as finding his points about the problem of evil interesting, I wholly disagree. It’s same old -same old, near as I can tell. I would love to hear something new or interesting about ‘the problem of evil’.
Heck, I’d probably convert to Christianity if any Christians had anything to offer to explain why a loving father who builds an amazing garden and an awesome kingdom for his children then chooses to allow over half of his children to be born live out their lives and then die down in the dungeon. A steaming hot, bone dry living hell that is teaming with disease, little food, and no clean water.
To which I responded with this quote that my wife had found:
Past the seeker as he prayed came the crippled and the begger and the beaten. And seeing them, he cried, “Great God, how is it that a loving creator can see such things & yet do nothing about them? God said, “I did do something, I made you.”My pesonal opinion is that God does *not* approve of the injustice you speak of. This is a fairly new mindset for me - I used to think until recently that each person had “a lot in life,” and you could either go through it with God or without him. But if you have a lesser lot than me, that’s God’s perogative.
I guess I still think that at some level, but I think there’s a reason people like you and I are blessed as much as we are. I think it’s God’s intent (whether you believe in him or not, if he exists I think this is his intent) for humanity to experience the same compassion he does - and how can that happen if we have nobody upon whom to pour that love?
I don’t think god wants them to suffer - I think he wants people with plenty to help the people in need. But people don’t.
But since I’m looking at it from a Christian perspective, my answer - or any answer from a Christian perspective - is likely “same old same old” from your perspective.
So let’s turn it around … for those of you who don’t believe in God, let’s say for the sake of discussion that he does exist. If he existed, how would God handle this problem? Or could it be avoided altogether?
Comment by: Miko
1Disease: Could be solved by not having it in the first place.
Little food: With a slight modification of the current laws of physics to allow the creation of energy from nothing, a god could periodically infuse the universe with new energy. Then people could have been designed to get their energy from this source instead of food, thus eliminating the possibility of hunger.
No clean water: There’s plenty of water as it is, so if there is a god the problem would seem to be that he/she/it intentionally chose to contaminate it. Thus, as in the case of disease, the solution is simply to not choose to do something universally bad and spiteful.
And although it wasn’t mentioned in the original list, I’ll add that all forms of destructive behavior and violence could have been rendered almost-totally ineffective by changing the intensity of the various fundamental forces. (And no, a free will argument doesn’t apply here unless you think that you currently lack free will because the force of gravity holds you on the planet’s surface).
There are a couple of caveats like the ‘almost-totally’ above, but if there were a god and it had the goal of not creating suffering by its (in)actions, it could have done a much better job than the present world or its state at any time in the past.
Anyhow, the problem of evil in the case where a Jewish/Christian God exists is already explained in the Bible (since according to Isaiah 45:7, God does knowingly and continuously choose to create evil for some reason).
Comment by: Keith
2Forgive the insufficient attempt at analogy …
Have you seen the Star Trek (the Next Generation) where Data becomes part of the Borg? As Star Fleet fights the Borg they have to be conscious of the impact the war on the Borg will have on Data because he is now part of the Borg. They have to go through a careful process of separating Data from Borg before they can destroy their enemy. If God were to wipe out evil, he would take a huge part of my life and of who I am … and I suspect this is true of more people than just me. I think God is involved in a more careful removal of evil, by attempting to remove each of us from the Borg so to speak, rather than simply destroying its center.
I don’t think this analogy solves the issue or even comes close … but perhaps it helps us start to think about how God might think about evil.
As far as why God created evil in the first place … could it be like asking why God created loud? Didn’t he create vibrations and the ability to sense vibrations and loud is how we distinguish between some of them? In a sense, we invented loud. Could it be the same with evil?
Help me out … I’m not sure how effective these analogies are, so let me know if they help or if they stink. Thanks.
Comment by: cautious
3To talk about TNG, Picard was definitely taken into the Borg collective but was Data? I remember there was that (rather weak, imho) two-parter where him and his ‘brother’ were sorta leading a ragtag group of Borg…
On the topic of God and evil…it does seem like most of the philosophical viewpoints on both the theist and nontheist sides of the issue have been argued, ad nauseum. People who believe in a benevolent God can make up reasons for why. People who don’t can make up plenty of counter-proposals.
Near-perfect evidence of this: human beings who lived through and experienced the Holocaust and yet still believe in a loving, protective God vs. people who lived through it and lost their faith.
The ad nauseum section of the conversation mostly makes me want to not talk about the “whys” of evil. For all I care, evil could be caused by followers of Nerull. Where the conversation gets interesting is: what shall we, who deem ourselves good, do about evil? Are there evils we can all agree on, and work together to vanquish? Is evil like a virus that can be quarantined and eradicated, or is evil inherent in the human condition and thus always going to be present?
Comment by: Keith
4Cautious … I think you’re right, it was Picard. It’s been a long time. I apologize and thanks for the correction.
Comment by: cautious
5Keith, no problem. What else am I here for besides discussing science fiction? :)
Comment by: Stephan
6Picard became one of the Borg during the series. Data became one of them in one of the movies (although after a while they all sort of run together).
And my summary of the problem of evil is this:
Shit happens.
Comment by: Steven Carr
7Mind you, the question is a bit like asking how the greatest football coach in the history of the game would handle the fact that his team was 0-16 for the past 10 seasons?
How would a fantastic football coach solve the problem that all his teams always finish 0-16?
Comment by: Setphan
8Steven, I realize that you only see things as one-sided, but I would like to know where you come up with your stats. Who is the team, and how do you rate them as 0-16?
Comment by: Laura M.
9I think most people would decide the coach must not be so ‘fantastic’ at coaching after all. I’m sure he would be fired long before the end of the tenth season.
Comment by: Laura M.
10Keith, my question had nothing to do with God ‘wiping out evil’.
You’re implying that we humans invented evil, which only works if you choose to define evil as something that couldn’t have been invented by God.
Did humans invent(?):
tornadoes
hurricanes
floods (*!*) /tsunamis
volcanos
earthquakes
mudslides
quicksand/sinkholes
wildfires
*any and all other ‘natural’ disasters
poisonous plants/insects/fungus
other species of plants and animals that are deadly to humans or that prey on us
deadly viruses/ bacteria/diseases/parasites (my personal favorite- especially the parasite part)
diseases that are not necessarily deadly but wreak havoc on individual health/happiness/peace of mind/safety such as:
blindness
deafness
mental retardation/Down Syndrome
mental illness
autism
severe learning disorders
muscular dystrophy
and many more
the climate and terrain of the Earth which leaves hundreds of millions of people living in areas without access to clean water or an abiltiy to develop enough industry to sustain their population
and the list goes on and on and on….
No , we humans didn’t invent these things but we are working hard to create solutions for people we don’t even know and never will who often are living an ocean away, or for people who haven’t even been born yet.
If we could figure out a way to transport hundreds of millions of people to a large enough landspace with enough water to sustain themselves, we absolutely would do it.
Comment by: Laura M.
11Another personal favorite that man did not invent:
8 different human bloodtypes so that if you get a transfusion of the wrong kind …you die!
Comment by: Keith
12Thanks for the response.
Agreed. Your question did deal with possible new or interesting ideas relating to the problem of evil. Thus I gave two analogies that had crossed my mind even though they were incomplete. Please note that I said as much in my original post.
In response to my statement:
You stated:
Again, thanks for the response. I regret implying that we invented evil when I said that in a sense we invented loud. What would have been clearer would be to say that we labeled it “loud.” If you have vibrations and the ability to sense vibrations you will have loud.
As this relates to evil, I don’t think of evil as an entity. It’s not like it was something invented the way someone would invent a stopwatch. It seems to me more like a label than an entity. My intention was not to blame us, but to recognize there is no blame. If someone invents a world of both expectations and freedom … then evil will result.
The thrill of competition is good even though loss is bad. The experience of love is good even if coupled with rejection or the eventual pain of parting in death. So … I don’t think man invented evil, because I don’t think evil was “invented”. I think it’s what we label anything the opposite of good. In that sense it is like the concept of loud.
I’m not interested in arguing this or hurting you in any way. If these analogies aren’t helpful, I wil drop them.
Comment by: Laura M.
13If God created destructive forces, then he is responsible for the destructive forces he created, isn’t he?
We certainly believe humans should be held accountable for the destructive forces we create.
Comment by: Keith
14Laura,
Any analogy will fold if pushed too far … clearly my analogy of “evil” with “loud” is not holding water. I will drop it. I’m sorry that I was unable to say anything new. Thanks for your patience.