Posted by Jason on: 04.21.2008 /
My middle daughter, Caitlin, loves dragons. She devours stories of the fierce beasts of mythology and boos the horse backed knight in his quest to kill her favourite creatures. She won’t have it that stories with evil dragons are just as good and entertaining as those with good and noble dragons.
She is now 11 years old but when she was a few years younger we spent a pleasant day at her cousins home in the country. Aunt K, Uncle Mike and Baby Sean live in an old farm building overlooking a number of fields. One typically has sheep in, some further off have cows, some have crops. We enjoyed looking at the animals and trying unsuccessfully to get the sheep to come over to be fed. Mike explained what was in some of the fields and his claims gradually got more outlandish. One field had elephants in, another was full of old cars, finally he claimed that one had a dragon in.
Cait was intrigued as only a gullible child can be. She stretched as far as she could over the gate and fence and craned her neck to catch a glimpse of the fabled beast of her dreams. We buoyed her on with our own jokes and claimed that we could make out a wing tip or the edge of a scaled tail. Was that noise the flap of mighty wings or a roar of flame? She loved it and had a fantastic time, even now she talks of the time that she saw a dragon, her imagination filling in the gaps of what she didn’t see.
This childish fancy isn’t real belief though. She may claim to believe that dragons are real and hiding in the next field or a lonely mountain in a distant land but she doesn’t really. She’s clinging to the fantasy for the pleasure that it brings to her. We support this fantasy as a bit of harmless fun. It encourages her imagination and her love of literature. She is in no danger of running off to join a dragon worship cult because, as far as I know, there aren’t any. Even if they were, they would be publicly ridiculed without a real dragon to show that they weren’t insane.
Eventually she will lose the innocence of easy belief in myths and legends, if she hasn’t already. We won’t need to shatter her illusions to make her see that, really, dragons don’t exist. She’ll grow out of it herself as she comes to understand biology and anatomy (dragon flight), chemistry (fire breathing), physics (dragon flight) and a whole library of topics.
How is belief in gods different from belief in dragons? In my opinion there’s as much evidence for either. Here’s how:
Belief in gods changes the way that people act. Perhaps it’s the promise of an afterlife or the group support for the belief that makes it so strong. The belief in something makes a person act differently. This can be both positive and negative. We’re fooling ourselves if we think differently.
Belief in a loving, charitable god may well make people act in a loving and charitable way. They may work in a soup kitchen, donate food, clothes or money or work with others to build a better future for their fellow human. Belief in a vengeful, homophobic god may well make people act in a violent, bullying manner towards a minority group. They may ignore the message of love and focus on God’s will only where it turns against something different. These are extremes of belief and human beliefs are seldom so simple and clear cut but the fact remains. Belief leads to action, positive and negative.
I believe that there are no gods. This is a stronger form of atheism than most atheist subscribe to. Most simply state that they have a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. That’s fine but, for me, it doesn’t go far enough. I believe that the lack of evidence is sufficient criteria for rejecting gods altogether. That doesn’t mean that I’d cling to this belief in the face of new evidence, I just don’t think any new evidence that supports gods will arise.
My belief does effect my actions. The fact that I reject gods also means that I reject an afterlife. I reject any form of afterlife. Hell holds no fear for me, Heaven no hope. I don’t believe that anyone watches over me to see my mistakes or my successes. They are mine to own. They are mine to lament and to celebrate, to fix and to build upon. My opinions are my own and I have to justify them. I can take them from whatever source that I choose.
The same freedom is available to everyone. There are no special rules for atheism, no secret handshake, decoder ring or monkey to high hat. There’s no club house, we don’t get to dress up in a special costume and we don’t have a secret language of our own. In fact, you don’t even have to give up your church, your priests or your bible if they inspire you. You are free to take your inspiration from whatever source you choose. To be an atheist all you have to do is lose that certainty of belief.
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Comment by: Ir (Helen)
1 04/21/08 7:20 AM | Comment Link |I agree with you that belief affects actions.
It doesn’t bother me if peoples’ beliefs are different from mine if their beliefs aren’t having a negative effect on them.
I am concerned when beliefs seem to be messing people up - either emotionally or in how they believe.
While learning to distinguish myth from reality is part of growing up, I would also say part of growing up is learning that the world doesn’t revolve around me.
I think religions sometimes help people learn to be less self-centred, i.e. religions can help people grow up in this and other ways.
I do like the freedom of not having a fixed belief system. I have much more freedom than when I was a Christian - although that may be partly because of the way I understood and practiced Christianity. Many other Christians probably have more freedom than I did. Nevertheless, it did have the effect of limiting my freedom and I’m happy that that’s now over for me.
Comment by: Jason
2 04/21/08 7:49 AM | Comment Link |Helen, I do think it important that people aren’t judged on their beliefs but on their actions. You claim to be a happier and better adjusted person in your almost atheism ;) than you were in your Christian days. This must have a positive effect on how you treat others.
I don’t think that it is belief that messes people up, rather the cognitive dissonance that their beliefs have with their perception of reality. Suspending disbelief can only go so far. You either have to reconcile them or reject them or you’ll go crazy.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
3 04/21/08 8:48 AM | Comment Link |Jason wrote:
I hope it does :). I did did try to treat others well when I was a Christian, though.
It’s interesting to me - I think some people are more analytical than others. Some can just shrug at things they don’t understand/which don’t seem reconcilable; others are bothered by it and are not happy until they find a way to reconcile them.
I used to ask my counselor ‘Doesn’t that bother you?’ and he’d just shrug until I eventually realized that he was different from me - he wasn’t just pretending not to be bothered :)
Comment by: Jason
4 04/21/08 9:26 AM | Comment Link |I’m sure you did but your focus would have been on Christ rather than just being yourself. Well, maybe. :)
I’m a bit of both (aren’t we all?) I tend to shrug off those things that I cannot change and see no harm in but sometimes get very bothered by seemingly minor issues that just don’t mesh well with me. If I were a counselor I’d be trying to fix everything rather than focus on listening and helping the person to come to terms with an issue. Not a good career choice for me. Give me machines any day.
Comment by: Mike O
5 04/21/08 8:20 PM | Comment Link |I’m always intrigued when atheists relegate belief in a god or gods to the level of fairy tales.
On one level, I understand your point - there is no “proof” for god or gods, just as there is no “proof” for dragons - or Santa or the Easter Bunny for that matter. But where the comparison falls apart is that there *is* evidence of the existance of a god or gods, but there is no evidence for the existance of fairy tales.
What evidence? here are a few - and I admit right up front that this doesn’t prove anything:
The vast majority of humanity believes (I mean, really believes) in some sort of supernatural realm. Hardly anybody believes in dragons.
There is “evidence” of a designer. Take, for example, the sriped bug you mentioned in this quote. It’s not proof, but it’s evidence of a designer. I know atheists don’t see it that way - and that’s fine - but when it comes to dragons, there’s not anything that can even be incorrectly construed as evidence that they exist. At least there is evidence of a designer.
For Christianity in particular, I think we all pretty much agree that Jesus did at least exist as a historical figure. If he wasn’t God, those closest to him (his disciples) would have been deceived 1st-hand by his lies (to their face). They gave up everything to follow him, yet for some reason, when they found out that he really wasn’t god (I’m speaking as a non-believer here - I do believe he was God), they still died to protect him. Not proof of anything, but it is evidence.
So I guess what I’m saying is that belief in gods is hardly equivalent to belief in dragons. People really believe in God - people don’t really believe in dragons. Again, it doesn’t prove anything, it’s just that they’re not on the same level.
I think to have “proof,” the closest thing you could ever have would be tangible miracles. But for some reason, God (if he exists) doesn’t seem to show himself in that manner. I wish he would, though - that would be cool. It still woudln’t prove anything, but it would be cool.
Comment by: Jason
6 04/22/08 4:34 AM | Comment Link |Not so, Mike O. There is anecdotal evidence of dragons galore. :) Not only my daughter’s near sighting but worldwide. Have you not seen the reports of the Ninki Nanka?
As for the existence of Jesus I’m not so certain that he existed as an historical figure or is merely an amalgam of several historical prophets of the time. Yet, even if I could be convinced of a single man named Jesus who existed and preached 2000 odd years ago then that still doesn’t make any of the supernatural claims real. Which is a shame, because some of the messages are quite encouraging.
Legends like the Ninki Nanka, the Irish Nucker and the Lock Ness Monster are “proof” that there is a sincere belief in dragons (or dragon like creatures). So belief in gods and belief in dragons are on the same level.
As for miracles well, don’t get me started on them. The last Pope canonized 476 people. Each had to have attributed to them two separate miracles that were verified and investigated by “experts”. Now I could view miracles as unexplained events and attribute them to the power of dragon magic if I wished. Caity would love that and she’s very important to me so that’s what I’m going to do. Dragon magic cured tiny Timmy’s lame leg and saved Soldier Sam from a mortar that killed the rest of his unit. You could attribute the cure and the save to a deity of your choice or to natural phenomena that science cannot yet explain. Cait prefers the dragons though.
Yay for dragons.
More importantly dragons make a little girl laugh, they don’t put any pressure on her to believe in them and are quite happy to live on in the imaginations of a million other kids if Cait stops thinking about them. The dragons don’t judge her or tell her that the green dragon is superior to the red dragon.
Dragons are cooler than gods any day of the week. Cooler even than pirates.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
7 04/22/08 6:36 AM | Comment Link |Hmmm…I think pirates are cooler than dragons, actually (sorry Jason :))
Well…when I felt I had to try to talk about Jesus instead of letting the conversation go where we both wanted it to go - and I did and the other person politely listened and put up with that - yes, you’re right.
It’s interesting that you contrasted that with ‘just being myself’ since Off The Map’s Doable Evangelism tagline is “what if evangelism meant just being yourself?” (Yes, I did have to throw that in :)) That certainly would have appealed to me when I was a Christian. Such a thing didn’t occur to me as possible at that time.
I liked your comments about being a counselor. I expect all you’d have to do is whatever you do with your children when you want to fix something for them but you know it’s best to listen and be supportive and find the balance where you help when they’re stuck but overall let them figure it out themselves.
Comment by: Stephan
8 04/22/08 7:21 AM | Comment Link |Jason, I think there are millions, perhaps even billions of people who would disagree with you about there not being “evidence” for God. As I see it, there are three possible explanations for you not seeing it.
1. You lack the sense to see it.
2. You have a higher standard of proof.
3. You are unwilling to see it.
As for number one, I’m sure there are people who are more sensitive to God than others, so I suppose it is possible that there are some who can hardly sense Him at all. Maybe it’s a little like color blindness - you simply lack the sensitivity to detect God. But that means an atheist who says there is no God is like a color blind person who says there are no real colors, and the rest of us are just making up colors to make ourselves happy.
The second option, that you have a higher standard, is a strong possibility. I admit that objective evidence for God is a hard thing. Perhaps, as I have said before, you are looking for proof rather than evidence. If so, you will not find it. But evidence abounds, proven by the fact that so many people believe in God (and many of them are intelligent, educated people). Isolated stories aside, you won’t find many (if any) educated people who claim to believe in dragons.
The third option is a popular one amongst many Christians. They say you deny God because it would mean you have to answer to a higher power. This requires, however, that you question somebody else’s motives, something I am hesitant to do, so we won’t go there. Only you can decide this one.
The bottom line is that I reject your entire line of reasoning. Simply because you cannot see or accept evidence for the existence of God does not mean that it does not exist.
As for this:
Do you honestly think that is a good reason not to believe in God? Because it makes you uncomfortable and it’s not cool?
Comment by: Jason
9 04/22/08 7:55 AM | Comment Link |:) OK pirates are cool but it’s St. George’s day tomorrow and a particularly sensitive time for Caity. That’s one reason why dragons win. Another is fire breathing and another is flight.
I can do the right thing with my kids because I have an interest in their well being. Not just their short term well being but their ability to cope with life long after I’m pushing up daisies. I don’t have that level of interest in anyone else. Unfortunately I’m the sort of person who, after I see a solution, cannot understand how everyone else misses it. Kids I can appreciate not “getting it” but I have less sympathy for adults.
I know, I’m a terrible meanie.
BTW: nice plug.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
10 04/22/08 9:23 AM | Comment Link |Of course, yes, St George’s day is tomorrow - no wonder you’re talking about dragons!
You don’t seem mean online but I’ll remember not to come to you for counseling :)
Comment by: Mike O
11 04/22/08 10:16 PM | Comment Link |Back to the gods as fairy tales topic - it just seems as though you don’t think religious people have thought things through or that we’re all just blindly believing what we’ve been told to believe - unwilling to acknowledge the “obvious”. While that may be an accurate caricature in far too many cases, atheist and Christian alike - it’s not true in mine. You’ll have to trust me on this, but I really have though things through, and I really have asked the hard questions, and I keep coming to the conclusion that there really is a God. But that’s me.
There are Christians who don’t blindly follow our faith. There are Christians who have “done the math” and come to the conclusion that there is a god, just as you have “done the math” and come to the conclusion that there isn’t.
I used to think that atheists were the only ones that were unwilling to really search things out, and that if they did, they would find God. I know now that two things are true - atheists *have* searched things out and *didn’t* find God, and Christians are sometimes the ones who don’t search things out - they just blindly follow, and that’s weak. But that’s not all of us.
I don’t mean to argue, I just respectfully disagree on the fairy tale comaparison.
Comment by: Jason
12 04/23/08 4:19 AM | Comment Link |Stephan, sorry I missed your comment, it was caught up in spam for some reason.
You’re assuming God straight away. Perhaps I’m unable to sense God because there is nothing to sense. You have to admit that this is a possibility. Never mind that though for we humans are a creative species. We have invented wonderful means to enhance our senses and peer into spectrums that our limited human senses are unable to fathom. God appears on no wavelength that our finest machines can detect so how can our humble senses manage this task?
You seem to assert that I secretly do believe in God but that I’m denying it despite the evidence available to me. Perhaps my failure to detect God is through a lack of effort and I should try harder and pray harder (or even start) till I sense this elusive being?
Possibly but you don’t believe in dragons and fairies based on the flimsy evidence for them (I assume) or any number of other unusual supernatural beings. If your standard for evidence were lower than mine then I’d assume that you’d believe in these things too. As you do not then I think it safe to discount this option.
I’m forced to throw a Bertrand Russell quote at you now.
See what you made me do.
Yes, that is a strange one. Surely answering to a secular power is of more value given my belief in a single life.
That’s true. I’ll reserve judgment until such time as sufficient evidence to amend my opinion arises. Until then I’ll continue on my current path.
Not at all, as I suspect you realise. It is worth examining why religion makes some people uncomfortable though. Why do you think that is?
Comment by: Jason
13 04/23/08 4:21 AM | Comment Link |Helen, I have been known to pull the wings off angels if that is any indication of my meanness.
Comment by: Jason
14 04/23/08 4:39 AM | Comment Link |I’m glad that you’ve made the effort to examine your beliefs, you’re right that a lot of people don’t think to or don’t even see the need. Let me ask you though: Do you believe in the God of the Old Testament, the God of the New Testament, or a different God whose character you have determined by your own thought processes? Have you cherry picked the good bits to fit your own world view? Don’t get mad at that, cherry picking is a good thing.
That’s fine, it’s obviously an emotive issue for believers. Both in dragons and gods. ;) Honestly though, if you base your actions on reason and not dogma then the difference between atheists and theists is just a matter of opinion. There are good ideas in the bible that have been used as the the basis for much of modern society…or perhaps ancient society had some good ideas that were adopted by the bible writers. If it’s a good idea then it doesn’t really matter what the source is. I can cherry pick to you know. :)
Comment by: Mike O
15 04/23/08 6:00 AM | Comment Link |Probably all three in reality, but I really really really really try to just have it be the first two - God of the OT and God of the NT.
I’m human, with a human nature. I’m sure that in my 40-some years of being alive, there are things I believe about God that are inaccurate - there HAS to be! I don’t think anyone has God figured out. But my goal is to at least try to understand the nature of God, given the lens of the Old and New Testaments PLUS my own experiences with him that to not contradict. But I’m only human, so I’ll guarantee you I’m wrong about something! :)
I try not to - there are harder aspects of the nature of God that I have trouble with, but I don’t discount them - I just dislike them or try to understand them. For example, Hell. I wouldn’t send anyone to hell forever - not even Hitler or the likes of him. If I were God, I would punish him, but not forever. But the New Testament does seem to say that there is a Hell, and that it does last forever. I don’t like that part, but I accept it as something I don’t understand. That doesn’t mean God is inconsistent and it doesn’t mean there is no God.
You said to Stephan,
And perhaps not.
You said to me
If you had said “science” here instead of “reason,” I would agree. You cannot detect God scientifically. It is a spiritual matter - which you reject out of hand. We can all use “reason,” atheists pretty much limit their reasoning to pure science, Christians *should* use science and what we have come to know spiritually through our own real experiences with God.
Comment by: Stephan
16 04/23/08 6:21 AM | Comment Link |Jason, don’t apologize for missing my post. It seems a lot of my posts get delayed for a day or two. I’m not sure why. I guess I’m just generally untrustworthy.
As for this:
Russell has a point, that popularity does not make something true, but I think you have to give it some credence if so many people see something in it. If 2/3 of the people on earth claimed to have seen dragons I would be tempted to believe in them, even if I had never seen one. I would certainly put more energy into searching them out than I do now. I would probably come to the conclusion that there was something wrong with me, rather than that there was something wrong with everyone else. Maybe that’s why Christians think atheists are arrogant. It’s the “everybody else is wrong” mentality that gets us riled up.
Given all that, I hardly think Russell is an authoritative expert, given his biases. I would expect an atheist to spout quotes that support atheism. That does not make them true. I would not expect you to take C. S. Lewis quote as gospel truth since you obviously disagree with his conclusions.
And this…
This is not hard to figure out at all. Religious people have done innumerable things to make religion frightening and unappealing. I would also guess that for some people the idea of an ideal standard by which all are judged is unsettling. We like to create our own yardsticks (or meter sticks, if you prefer (or metre sticks if you want to get really edgy)). I’m sure most people consider themselves to be moral people, and if their idea of morality does not fall in line with the majority religious opinion it might cause one to reject religion as a whole.
Comment by: Mike O
17 04/23/08 7:28 AM | Comment Link |Religious people.
I think people tend to get so caught up in the methods of religiosity that they completely bastardize the whole point that God had in mind when he set this thing into motion.
“Fantasize” :) with me for a moment that there really is a God, and for whatever reason, he decides to create the universe and life on earth for the purpose of one day bringing people back to heaven to spend eternity with him.
Religions are methodologies people use as templates to try to live lives that please God, so that one day they can be with Him - at least that’s the Christian perspective. That’s a good goal, but I think we get distracted by the do’s and don’ts of the particular methodology (religion) and we lose sight of the point that the whole reason God did this was because he loved us - not to control us. And when all that religious people have to offer is religion, irreligious people want nothing to do with it.
I don’t think Jesus was very religious, do you? In fact, the people Jesus made the most uncomfortable were the religious people. Go figure!
Comment by: Mike O
18 04/23/08 8:52 AM | Comment Link |For what it’s worth, did you know there’s a reference to Dragons in the Bible? I read it the other morning. I’m not trying to make any point except that you might find this passage intresting. And no, it’s not a sneak attack to trick you into reading the Bible :) I just thought you and/or Caitlin might be interested to know that dragons are mentioned in the bible.
For what it’s worth, Job is thought by many to be the oldest book in the Bible, written sometime around 2000B.C. Here’s an overview I have on the historical setting of the book of Job:
Anyway, the point is that it’s really really old. But here’s the part about dragons (Leviathan). God is speaking:
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
19 04/23/08 9:56 AM | Comment Link |Stephan, I’m so sorry about that post - I was in Seattle for a couple of days and was away from my computer - on Tuesday we were out from 5:30 until almost midnight…and then I discovered your comment in the moderation queue when I got home again.
As best I can tell it’s random whose posts go in the moderation queue. It seems to happen to all our regular commenters sometimes. I try to keep an eye on it and I think I get e-mails if there’s something in it but I was so busy in Seattle I must have missed yours.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
20 04/23/08 9:58 AM | Comment Link |Jason wrote:
Ouch…I’m going to pretend I didn’t see this…
Comment by: Jason
21 04/23/08 5:05 PM | Comment Link |To me Hell is one of the worst inventions of the Bible. I say inventions deliberately for a variety of reasons. The OT doesn’t have nearly as much in the way of punishment after death. There’s also all that stuff that Paul said, he did seem to have a pretty dark obsession with suffering and doom. Besides which we are told that the god of the Christians is kind, merciful, just and above all wise. Any sort of retributive punishment without teaching the person being punished a lesson seems wasteful and cruel. If, by some chance, we do live on after death are we really to believe that we cannot learn from our mistakes and change our ways?
I’m still not entirely certain what “spiritual” really means. Every time I come close to understanding it someone comes along and changes the criteria. When you say that we limit ourselves to pure science it makes us seem that we’re coldly logical. I do believe that science can show or define everything, or will at some point in the distant, distant future. That is only a small part of being human though.
Comment by: Jason
22 04/23/08 5:18 PM | Comment Link |Yeah. Why do they do that? There are positive aspects of religion and positive messages but the soundbites of damnation are all that seem to be heard. Honestly though, where is the incentive to keep listening if someone tells me I’m damned to an eternity of burning unless I suspend my disbelief and do what I’m told?
As for morality I feel compelled to say that, as an atheist who has thought about morality, I feel that I’m in a better position to justify my views and actions than a person who blindly follows a book or a church. That isn’t everyone else being wrong but it’s enough people to give me pause.
Comment by: Jason
23 04/23/08 5:28 PM | Comment Link |That seems fair but why should we want to please a god who appears to take no interest in our lives? I realise that you might say that God does but then I’d have to get all negative and ask for evidence and stuff. An analogy for God is an absent father, only real to the child in stories and imaginings. The child may wish to please “Daddy” but will reach a point where he or she will ask themselves what the point is if he’s never around to see it.
Not religious but certainly faithful.
Several actually. Dragons are very popular in Revelations.
Comment by: Stephan
24 04/24/08 6:48 AM | Comment Link |We’re human and we make mistakes. We are insecure and so we try to make ourselves look superior. We are selfish and try to get things to make us happy. We are arrogant and look down on others.
In short, we have problems just like everyone else. The difference is that we have a reason that we are supposed to actually be better, and we often fall short of it.
On the other hand, religious people also do some of the best humanitarian work in the world. That is not to say that atheists don’t do it, but I believe religious people are the leaders in this category. Would you agree?
I am just reading one of the C. S. Lewis Narnia books with my girls - The Silver Chair. In it a witch is trying to enchant the main characters and tell them the only world is her world. Narnia, Aslan, talking animals, the sun, they sky - are all imaginary. One of them finally breaks through the haze and says (I am paraphrasing here), “Even if what you say is true, and all of this is made up, then I say our made up world is better than your real world, and I will stand by it and die for it.” You really have to read the passage to get the full context, but that sums it up for me.