Where’s Waldo?

Comment by: Karen

Atheists see it a different way. I can’t speak for you because I’ve never been an atheist. But I do know that you believe there is no god.

I’m sure you’ve probably already heard this but very few atheists “believe there is no god.” (Those are called “strong” atheists, by the way.)

The vast majority of atheists (like me) are “weak” atheists who believe that we don’t know if there’s a god or not, but at this point there’s not sufficient evidence to justify worshipping one.

It’s a subtle but important distinction.

My life over the past 5 months has not gone the way I would have liked. It’s been like a big Where’s Waldo picture, and God is the Waldo. Atheists would say there is no Waldo. Christians say there is, it’s just a matter of finding him.

I’m sorry, Mike O. I had hoped you would be settling in to a new job by now. :-( I just spoke to another friend and found out he was laid off at the beginning of this month. It’s a tough economy all around, unfortunately.

But here I am five months into a layoff I can’t afford. My severance pay is gone. My wife is now working part-time in addition to her full-time job as a minister. I am working part time and collecting unemployment and we just this week dipped into our retirement account for money to make up the difference. I wouldn’t have thought God would have wanted that. But at the same time, if I’m trying to help people in financial difficulty, and I haven’t actually gone through it myself, how useful was it for me to say “trust God! He’ll see you through!” It was somewhat useful, I suppose. But now I’m the one to whom people are saying “Trust God! He’ll see you through!”

I understand what you’re saying, but it seems unnecessarily exhausting to me that you have to try to find a lesson or a silver lining in this bad period in your life.

Honestly, when I’m going through a rough patch now, I just figure it’s a crappy time and I gripe about it if I feel like it. In other words, I don’t feel like I have to figure out why god is allowing me to go through this trial or what he’s trying to teach me. And that’s a relief.

As an atheist, I can just say, “Damn, this situation really sucks!” and put my mental energy into getting through it.

My prayer is that I handle it well.

Something I’ve come to believe in the last few years is that we (obviously) cannot control what life throws at us; but we can control how we respond. We’d all have bad days as you described, but it sounds like overall you are responding with maturity and calm and patience, which is really admirable. I could only hope to do the same in your shoes.

Good luck with your job search and thanks for the update.

Comment by: Jason

While I fail to see God anywhere I must commend you for your positive attitude. I think that it would be very easy for a believer to become bitter about the perceived lack of help from God. I don’t see that with you but it must be difficult sometimes.

BTW I think I would be considered a “strong” atheist at times but a “weak” atheist at other times. I think the biggest issue that I have is that I see no need for God in solving the problems that we have or even living through them. I don’t see that you have that need for God but that you do gain a measure of peace from your belief. Is that fair?

Comment by: Mike O

There’s just no way that god exists, in my view. Too much sh** in the world and too much suffering. The “free will” argument holds no water for me, it just seems like a poor excuse.

I was talking to a Christian friend of mine last Saturday, and he said something to the effect that all atheists know deep down there is a God because “he has written eternity on their hearts.” I doubt he knows any atheists, however, so that’s an easy philosophy to hold, huh?

I used to think like that, too, but now that I have gotten to know more and more atheists, I believe you when you say “there’s just no way god exists.” I no longer think you’re trying to shuck and jive your way around something you hope isn’t true. You really don’t believe in God. Believe it or not, that’s a news flash to a lot of Christians.

Comment by: Stephan

Having been unemployed twice in the last 5 years, I can tell you that you sometimes don’t find Waldo until the whole experience is over and you can say, “Oh, he was right there the whole time!” It has amazed me to look back and see how things worked out - things that are simply too brilliant to be “coincidence”. Then you have stories to tell, and I think that is a great treasure to have.

Comment by: Karen

I used to think like that, too, but now that I have gotten to know more and more atheists, I believe you when you say “there’s just no way god exists.” I no longer think you’re trying to shuck and jive your way around something you hope isn’t true. You really don’t believe in God. Believe it or not, that’s a news flash to a lot of Christians.

Yes, that’s true.

I remember hearing that atheists either a) really know deep down that there’s a god but refuse to acknowledge him because they want to lead selfish, hedonistic lifestyles (ha!) or b) really know that there’s a god but are angry at him.

Why do you think these myths are perpetuated about atheists? They are commonly taught by Christian pastors and leaders, as I remember. Is it just a poor understanding of atheism, or is there a fear involved in learning the truth - that atheists really just don’t see any evidence for god? Like maybe that position would be considered not so radical if it were actually understood?

Just think, Mike O., you’ve learned something new by hanging around atheists! ;-)

Comment by: Jason

I remember hearing that atheists either a) really know deep down that there’s a god..

He he, I think the opposite about theists sometimes.

Undoubtedly there are some people who are angry at God but these people cannot be atheists. How can you be angry at something that you don’t think exists? It’s like being angry at Waldo for hiding so well.

The atheists getting the most press (Dawkins, Hitchen, et al) do come across as angry sometimes. It isn’t anger at God though, but anger at religion. Possibly anger at the illogical and lack of reason in certain beliefs. Of course this isn’t limited to Christian faith but extends to belief in ghosts, homeopathy, rejection of medicine and science and many other things.

Comment by: Mike O

I would agree with #1. I just had a friend say on Saturday that all atheists “have eternity written on their hearts,” therefore they all “know” there’s a God and for whatever reason, they are avoiding him.

While I do believe there is plenty of evidence for God, that doesn’t change the fact that I actually know - and like - atheists, and you really don’t believe in God.

Comment by: Mike O

This concept is supportable by scrupture, so it’s not like Christians are making it up from scratch.

I think the difference is that when Christians say people “know there is a God,” they’re talking about in their spirit, which atheists don’t accept even exists. But when atheists hear us saying they “know there is a God,” they’re thinking that it’s a mental exercise - that you can somehow figure it out. Which, of course, you can’t.

So we’re not really talking about the same thing.

Comment by: Jim Henderson

And let’s admit, the atheists getting the most press these days certainly seem angry

Same is true about angry Cs and the press

Maybe the problem is fundamentalism is all its varied expressions

Comment by: Karen

Karen

I think this myth is perpetuated by

1) Christians who only talk to each other and have no real atheist friends

2) Pastors who feel they “need” it to be true to protect their job

Now see, that would be my gut instinct on it, too. But I figured I had a “biased” atheist view on the matter. :-)

I think the difference is that when Christians say people “know there is a God,” they’re talking about in their spirit, which atheists don’t accept even exists. But when atheists hear us saying they “know there is a God,” they’re thinking that it’s a mental exercise - that you can somehow figure it out. Which, of course, you can’t.

Yes, this is true. Christians think there is some way of knowing something “in your heart” or “in your soul” and atheists don’t acknowledge this rather mystical spiritual “knowing” so the two sides can’t really relate here.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Mike O wrote:

I think the difference is that when Christians say people “know there is a God,” they’re talking about in their spirit, which atheists don’t accept even exists. But when atheists hear us saying they “know there is a God,” they’re thinking that it’s a mental exercise - that you can somehow figure it out. Which, of course, you can’t.

So we’re not really talking about the same thing

.

Jason wrote:

I think that the “knowledge of God” isn’t knowledge in the true sense of the word but rather a conviction that is so strong as to feel like knowledge. That’s the only way I can reconcile the apparent disparity.

Christians in the Christian circles I used to belong to have experiences they believe are from God. Also, they’re taught to interpret various experiences and feelings as from God. If they accept that interpretation and have and continue to have those experiences and feelings they will be strongly convinced God exists and they may well say “I know God exists” and/or “I know God”.

People who were Christians and no longer are, reached a point of questioning whether their interpretation of those thoughts and feelings was right, and changing their mind from “that was from God” to “Actually, no, I don’t see any reason to think that was from God” or “I cannot be sure that was from God”.

This personal/subjective evidence is different from intellectual, outside evidence that God does or doesn’t exist. In my experience, the faith of evangelical Christians tends to be based both on an intellectual belief that the evidence supports God’s existence, plus a personal/subjective/experiential belief that they have and are encountering God as they live their lives. The personal/subjective/experiential belief is more what anchors their faith than the outside evidence - that’s why arguing with Christians that the evidence is against God’s existence is not very convincing to them.

It’s like showing someone a newspaper article saying someone died last week when you had coffee with them this morning. To you it’s obvious that the newspaper is wrong. It would take much more for you to be convinced you didn’t actually have coffee with them this morning. Maybe because that’s about the accuracy of your perception - you would have had to be hallucinating, or the other person wasn’t really who you thought…that takes a lot more of a shift than the idea that an outside source is unreliable.

Comment by: Jason

I’ve never thought about it like that Helen. Thanks.

Isn’t that (I’m sorry but I can’t think of a polite way to phrase this) delusional though? If I believed I have enjoyed coffee with a person and all the evidence indicated that they were dead a week wouldn’t I be considered insane. That is unless everyone else agreed with me in which case the evidence is wrong.

I’d need to test the evidence, ask them about the newspaper, see them again. Find out if they had a twin or a doppelganger of some kind. Maybe the twin was dead and the paper had made a mistake.

That’s what you do when you have two pieces of contradictory evidence. You question.

Now if someone has questioned, as I believe that Mike and many of the commenters here have, and still find your answer to be right then I can’t fault you except in interpretation. It is when people refuse to question that I get annoyed. When they take something purely on faith.

That’s probably my flaw.

Comment by: Karen

It’s like showing someone a newspaper article saying someone died last week when you had coffee with them this morning. To you it’s obvious that the newspaper is wrong. It would take much more for you to be convinced you didn’t actually have coffee with them this morning. Maybe because that’s about the accuracy of your perception - you would have had to be hallucinating, or the other person wasn’t really who you thought…that takes a lot more of a shift than the idea that an outside source is unreliable.

Helen, that’s a terrific analogy. Truly, the experience that many religious believers have of god (all theists have these experiences and convictions) is as vivid as having coffee with him at the kitchen table.

One of the major difficult and wrenching conclusions of the deconvert is that those feelings and convictions led to wrong conclusions. It does come down to questioning yourself, and those you’ve trusted for so many years.

Most people do trust themselves and their experiences far more than that. It’s only when you start objectively examining human perceptions and realize how easily they are misunderstood and manipulated that it becomes possible to see those experiences of god in a different light.

Comment by: Stephan

One of the major difficult and wrenching conclusions of the deconvert is that those feelings and convictions led to wrong conclusions.

But the fallacy that some atheists employ is that, because their conclusions were wrong, those feelings and convictions must also have been wrong. It might be healthier to reinterpret those feelings and convictions rather than throw them out because they led you to the wrong conclusions.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Stephan, I think atheists doreinterpret their feelings and convictions rather than throwing them out. The reinterpretation doesn’t involve God.

Comment by: Jason

Thanks for clarifying Stephan. As we go through life we make decisions and learn from our mistakes. We observe others and learn from their actions as well. Human beings are very good at this and babies seem to have the idea of learning from their parents perfected…unfortunately. When we do learn a new skill or gain a piece of knowledge or understanding about the world we tend to cling to it and build upon it. Where it does not work we gain new understanding and greater appreciation for the world. Inevitably some ideas will be rejected as unworkable or false.

There is very little knowledge that we have that is truly a priori or independent of experience. We all reassess and reorder our thoughts to make sense of a changing world and new experiences. God doesn’t always need to be a part of that.

Comment by: Jason

I do think that it’s a good idea to have distinctions between religion, faith and God. They do all tend to get muddied up together. I agree that there is no reason why you cannot factor God, faith or religion into your way of living. You don’t have to reject any of them any more than you have to include any of them.

I suppose it is a matter of using whatever works best for you.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Stephan wrote:

Helen, you missed my point. Reinterpretting convictions does not have to mean leaving God out. I think some deconverts, such as Karen, see this as a necessity.

Let’s say a superior at work gives you a task. You misunderstand and do the wrong thing. When this is pointed out, what should your response be? Should you ignore the request entirely? Pretend it never happened? Or should you try to clarify the request so you can get it right the next time?

You would start by trying to clarify the request - but if that process resulted in some surprising revelations such as, that note was not from who you thought it was, then you would need to take that into consideration and not cling to a belief about the note which the evidence didn’t support.

What I’ve seen is that people who stop being Christians don’t rush to write God out of their lives. Rather the opposite - they do look for less drastic shifts they can make, which enable them to continue believing in God. It’s only when those fail (for them) that they go as far as atheism.

I’ve read lots of accounts of people moving from Christianity to atheism in which they talk about desperately trying to hold onto their belief in God. Not religion, but God. They didn’t set out to be atheists, and they didn’t welcome the prospect at first. They might be at peace with it now but it was not something they rushed into, delighted to throw off their belief in God.

Comment by: Karen

Mike O., it was a process that stretched over about five or six years, culminating in 2001-2002. Definitely not a quick and easy process, but one fraught with a lot of turmoil, tears, prayer and finally resignation and new hope.

I used to have a link to a version of the story that I had written out on the old DB, but I can’t find that anymore. If you want to send me your email address, I’ll be happy to send it to you. It’s too long to post here.

Comment by: Mike O

and finally resignation and new hope.

It’s interesting that you would put it this way. I got acquainted with another atheist guy who was in seminary when he deconverted. He made a similar statement that the relief he felt - or hope, as you put it - was incredible.

This is actually something I plan to explore deeper in a future post. The whole idea that deconverting is bringing people the same result that converting is supposed to bring - relief and hope!

I hear statements like this, and I see something terribly wrong with the way many Christians are going about following Christ! We’re supposed to be providing hope, not taking it away! We’re supposed to be providing relief (”my yoke is easy and my burden is light”) but we’re not! People shouldn’t find hope and relief by leaving, they should be finding it by coming in! It makes me sad that this is happening.

When I talked earlier about how I’m trying to help Christians in my “Real Life,” this is exactly the kind of thing that we Christians don’t see that we need to see.

Comment by: Karen

I expect on hearing that, some Christians might jump to the conclusion that they never really understood Christianity, else it would have brought them freedom and joy that couldn’t be increased by deconversion.

Yes, the old “you were never really a Christian to begin with” assumption. That one used to make my blood boil, but it just makes me laugh and shake my head these days.

Karen would you be willing to post your story as a stand alone post on this blog? I’d like to read it again so that already makes two of us :).

Sure. I’ll have to work on it a bit and I have a busy weekend coming up (Mother’s day, and a baby shower, and volunteer work at my kids school, and a pancake breakfast at my Y and …. ;-) ).

My work week should be rather light next week though, so I’ll try to get to it then.