I don’t want my kids to be atheists

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Very interesting - thanks for sharing this, Jason!

Can we see a bigger photo of you and your family? :)

I used to want my children to be Christians but now I want them to be people who understand how to do research and evaluate data and evidence. So that their conclusions and positions and viewpoints are well-informed. I’d also like them to be responsible caring people - and so far I’m very pleased by what I hear back from their teachers about how they help other students - and their grades indicate they’re responsible about getting their work done. I also hope they will find things to do as adults so they’ll be fulfilled and happy.

What I want sounds similar to what you want for your children. But feel free to point out any differences you see!

Comment by: Jason

I’ve edited the photo so that clicking on it opens a new window with more detail.

Randy, having them walk away and reject my beliefs would be a snub but having them leave home and find beliefs of their own, even if they were incompatible with my own, would be great.

Helen, I would think that any parent would want their children to be well rounded and content individuals. We all want the best for our progeny.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Karen I’m glad you said that because I counted five also :) I agree about cute, too - Jason you have a lovely family!

Comment by: Jason

Thank you, Helen, I think that they’re lovely too.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Elizabeth, I didn’t know you had four children too! Thanks for your comment.

Comment by: Rev. Dan

@Jason:

Nice crew! Props to you for providing a solid foundation for them to grow upon. Cheers!

I have no children (that I’m aware of) and I’m not going to reproduce. (I guess that makes me a “self-correcting problem.” :) )

Comment by: Jason

Elizabeth, four daughters? Crumbs. ;)

You say you explored not having a faith, can I ask what made you reject that in the end? My experience is that people tend to stick with atheism once it is given serious consideration. Even people who explore a variety of faiths usually end up either forming their own ideas in a deist sort of way or rejecting them all.

Helen, honestly the only opinion that matters about my children is their own. My opinion and the opinion of their peers is just a bonus.

Rev. Dan, no plans to reproduce eh? Doing your bit for population control? If so you’re much more responsible than Elizabeth and I who are adding to the global problem of overcrowding and dwindling resources. I should hang my head in shame. ;) Or maybe you just don’t like the little ankle biters.

We don’t all have that urge to propagate our species. My partner, Hil, is certainly not a cooing maternal hen. I doubt that she’d have chosen to have kids at all if it wasn’t for my terrible influence.

Comment by: Rev. Dan

@Jason:

Honestly, my decision to not reproduce has a lot more to do with the fact that I would be the world’s worst parent (perhaps second only to my own) than any of the reasons you mention.

As it stands I’m doing my best to get along with adults and find that to be challenging enough. No human being deserves to come into the world to find themselves cared for by me. ;)

I’m sorry that I seem to have given off the impression that everything in my head has a negative slant towards others. I have vented here, but I do like y’all.

Agree with? Not necessarily.
Like/admire? Hells yeah.

Comment by: Stephan

Jason, it sounds like your experience with kids has been similar to mine. Our first was a screamer, to the point that my wife and I would stare at each other blankly and ask, “What have we done?”. He was, and continues to be, rather high maintenance. Our girls, by comparison, were less work together than our son was all by himself. That may be as much a function of gender as anything else, but it sure clears up the misconception that they come into the world as blank slates.

Comment by: Rev. Dan

the worst parents are honestly those who think that they aren’t doing anything wrong.

Yup. I had a roommate once who started dating a “single mom” who had two kids. They all were sitting in the living room one day when I walked through on my way out, to observe the little toddler boy laying on the carpet with duct tape on his wrists and on his mouth. The mom, the roommate, and the sister were all sitting around him in a circle looking down on him like it was some sort of macabre nativity scene.

I said “WTF?!?!?” (A LOT more than this, mind you.)

Long story short, I left and called the cops. (I couldn’t stand to be there when the cops showed up and I felt it was important to ensure that the cops actually witnessed this firsthand.) I talked to one of the cops outside afterwards and he told me that the mom admitted that they’d duct taped the boy’s hands and mouth as “discipline” for getting into stuff he shouldn’t (aka “being a toddler.”). The cop told me that the mother had seemed really perplexed that anyone would consider that to be an “inappropriate form of discipline” and had shown them the duct tape they used to restrain the toddler, etc. The cop told me that they’d called Child Protective Services and that the mother would be receiving counseling.

The roommate, who worked nights and had left the house right after the incident, woke me up at 3 am, screaming and yelling at me that I was a liar, blah, blah, blah because he “wasn’t abusing a child.” I almost pushed him off the balcony.

That living arrangement ended poorly, to say the least.

It amazes me that you have to have a license to drive a car but you can pop out babies as often as you like.

Comment by: Jason

Stephan, it certainly is a misconception that kids are born as blank slates. All of my kids have had distinct personalities since birth. Obviously they’ve developed and changed over the years but there was certainly a base from which to build on.

Comment by: Randy

Sorry for being absent from the party for a bit…I’m on a road trip on my Harley up in rainy Seattle (rain in Seattle…who’da thunk?).

Anyway, Helen…Yes, I was a bit more, uh, “pushy” with my kids when I was younger (and when they were, thankfully). We had them go to church with us, not so much for educational purposes but because we viewed the church as our family and Sunday morning we went to hang with our family. At 14 I had to let go of forcing my oldest son to join us, which was good for everyone. He was quite shocked by the release, but he simply made life hell for all of us on Sunday mornings (and honestly most other days of the week, too).

I do want my kids to fall in love with Jesus, but since love is something you can’t really push people into, I must trust Jesus for the outcome of that and hope I don’t paint an unwarranted picture of him for them. My oldest son, as you know, does not believe (except in a rather fuzzy notion of god), but has great respect for me and for my faith. My daughter is an emergent type believer (meaning a bit disillusioned with church, but willing to radically follow Jesus), and my youngest son is unclear about much, including what he believes.

As Jason said in the post just ahead of me, all three are incredibly unique from each other. They all look a bit like me, which is comforting (I’d suspect my wife was fooling around otherwise), but they are as different from each other as night and day…with the same parents and environments and upbringing.

Comment by: Rev. Dan

And I’m sorry your roommate got mad at you rather than accepting responsibility, even though he was in the room when it was going on.

I’m in no way defending the guy’s actions*, but I think it’s a good illustration of what Jason meant by “some people aren’t aware of the fact that they’re truly bad parents.”** I’d argue that in some ways that’s true of my parents as well. I’m not willing to cut them slack for what they’ve done (largely because they won’t even accept the fact that they were truly wrong) but I don’t think they had me with the intent of being bad parents. In fact, they really, really wanted to have a child but their desire/wants were misplaced, unrealistic, and ultimately really wrong.

My parents tried for 14 years to have a baby. (One day my dad realized… “oh, I probably shouldn’t wear a prophylactic if we’re trying to conceive”)*** I think a fundamental problem is that they got a human being instead of a puppy.

The law (in the U.S.) essentially treats children as property. As long as you feed, clothe, and shelter them and also make sure they go to school, you don’t have to do anything above and beyond that. I’m certain of this because my parents used to regularly abuse the “justice system” and call the police to have me hauled away because I’d argue about stuff like “cleaning my room.” The police would show up and haul me away without so much as asking me a question. I have no idea how many times I ended up in handcuffs because my parents would call and use the “magic take my kid away” words.

My parents had me intentionally so I really consider them to be especially responsible for not investing the time and effort required to create a good foundation upon which to build a family. They had material resources which allowed them to raise me in an upper-working-class family (I had all the cool toys… Star Wars, Lego, GI Joe… I had no lack of “stuff”) but they lacked the ability to provide a home.

My mother (I guess I’m softening on my use of vocabulary a bit) used to regularly tell me how much she resented cleaning me up as a toddler (changing my diaper and the like) and frequently asserted that I owed her love and respect because of that. After hearing this for the umpteen billionth time I came to an appreciation of that fact that I absolutely owed her nothing. The fact that she changed my diapers means that she was acting at least semi-responsibility for the choices and decisions that SHE had made. At least I got that much out of the situation.

Seriously, my parents should have just gotten a dog. In fact, I think that’s what my parents thought raising a child would be like. You could just throw the dog in the back yard and ignore it as long as it had food/water, and It’d be fun to go out and throw the ball around every now and then. Dogs treated that way are always happy to see you and don’t really seem to think about the fact that they were kicked last week. Human beings, though, remember and have personalities of their own.

It seems very strange to me that they decided to take a class on parenting when I was 14-15. I mocked them for days when they brought home their parenting class completion certificate. It was a brilliant example of their disconnect from reality. Perhaps I should have given them credit for at least trying, but that effort seemed to be mmm… about 15-16 years too late. To me, it’s akin to showing up with a bucket to help scoop out all the water after the Titanic had already hit the iceberg and was partially submerged.

One of my friends and his wife are going to have a baby soon. He’d told me, well before they conceived, that if there were going to have a baby that there were things he needed to change in his life to prepare for it. He and his wife went to some counseling, started reading books, started eating more healthily, he stopped smoking, etc. It’s people like them who totally should have children. Their kid is going to be awesome because my friend and his wife are setting their lives up as a launching pad for another human life. My parents, I believe, thought that I would be fill-dirt to smooth over the holes in their lives.****

I’d be surprised if you’d really be that bad a parent. However since parenting is so challenging I think it makes sense not to take it on if you have strong reservations about it beforehand.

Thanks for the nice counter-assertion, but I am absolutely certain that I’d be a bad parent… not because I’d want to be a bad parent but because I have huge “blind spots” which I’m not really even aware of. Talkin’ with y’all has been a good mirror in that regard… I’ve come to appreciate a couple of things about myself that could use some work that I hadn’t really considered before (or had overlooked). Thanks for that, all, and especially Helen.

I’m truthfully far too “broken” to ever be a parent. I still think it’s possible though to heal enough that it’d be possible to have a healthy relationship with someone else and I’m doing a lot better with interpersonal relationships on the whole. A therapist once told me that he was pleasantly surprised to hear that I’ve been able to maintain long-term relationships (I still have friends from Jr. High School) because folks who have issues similar to mine typically aren’t able to.

I’m absolutely certain that these holes exist (though I don’t see or understand some of them) because evidence of their effects has shown up time and time again in my relationships. In some cases, I’m totally unaware that how I was treated was completely wrong and think it was normal or acceptable behavior. I’d appreciate any good thoughts/help towards figuring some of that stuff out… it’s painful, lonely, and it sucks. Why would I inflict that upon another human being, especially one who would totally be dependent upon me? I’m just not that immoral.

I’m making NO assertions about ANYBODY else’s parenting skills via indirect reference/innuendo or passive-aggressive comments, I’m just talking about my own experience. While I think that’s self-apparent, I’d prefer to err on the side of clarity. I’m not here to sling mud, on the contrary I’m quite grateful that some of you are willing to get “dirty” and talk with me (or more accurately, perhaps, you’re willing to “listen”). Thank you for that. :)

* That dude was one of the worst roommates ever. During the really negative process of getting him out of my life he threw away a huge box of my photographs and negatives. I think intentionally and willfully destroying someone else’s permanent records and documentation of their life and memories is one of the more evil things one can do.
** Paraphrased.
*** Not really. The prophylactic bit is a joke; the other parts are legit.
**** This is a pretty apt description, because they truly treated me like dirt.

Comment by: Mike O

This might be a bit of a stretch for you, Dan, but pretty much all of my resources are Christian. But we did a series on John Eldridges “Wild at Heart,” and that’s what it’s about - getting past the wounds of your father (parents, in your case). Of ocurse it’s got the whole Christian bent to it that I know you’re not keen on, but …

Oh, and I want to add that while we maybe didn’t hit it off too good at the beginning (I made that “why the rage?” comment in my first post to you), but I’m starting to “get” you. You’re OK, man. You’re pretty OK in my book.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Mike, I’ve heard many (Christian) guys enthuse about Wild at Heart (including my ex-pastor).

To me it comes across as presupposing men are a certain way that church often doesn’t affirm. Men who agree like the book because it affirms them and reassures them that they weren’t crazy to feel that church was trying to fit them in a box they didn’t fit into. For them it’s very freeing.

But I could see other men thinking “Eldredge’s box doesn’t fit me either” - I don’t think the book will be very helpful to them.

Personally I found it rather sexist. (I wrote about on CatE when it was first opened, here)

(Oh, here’s one other thing about Wild At Heart - I noticed that Eldredge uses Iron John as a resource, a weird pagan book about the archetypes of man, which centers around pagan gods and goddesses. I said to some Christians, “don’t you care that this presents a view of men derived at least in part from pagan mythology?” Rather than the Bible? I couldn’t find any who cared which disappointed me. Then I read another Eldredge book supposedly based on a Christian viewpoint but mostly its approach to spiritual growth was, figure out the movie character you want to be like. Eldredge is too ‘out there’ for me. Sorry - you probably didn’t know Eldredge was on my list of most annoying Christian authors (only imo of course))

Anyway…each to his own. Mike, I appreciate you suggesting a resource for Dan which you’ve found helpful. And not least for mentioning it’s Christian.

I can imagine some Christians offering a Christian book, not mentioning it’s Christian and hoping it will influence the reader to become a Christian. I.e. it’s a covert evangelism tactic.

But you were open about it being Christian and how you realize that might be an issue for Dan. I think that’s awesome! (Even though Eldredge’s books bug me :))

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Mike, that’s a good point.

These days I might rather frame it as ‘letting go of being angry at people, since it makes no difference to them and makes me miserable’. As I think about it, the word ‘forgive’ pushes my buttons, I guess - it must have been used to invalidate me along the way, I guess.

I heard one time “they hurt you once but you’re hurting yourself with what they did over and over again by continuing to dwell on it.” I try to bear that in mind!

But the first stage for some people is getting angry. People like Rev Dan who start by assuming something is normal (this is a reference to what he said in his post, not me psychoanalyzing him) need to learn it isn’t and then be angry. So they can go from not being angry because they’re repressing the appropriateness of being angry, to being angry, to letting go.

It’s a process and being told to forgive too early in the process keeps people at the ‘repressed’ stage. They need space to feel what they ought to feel before choosing not to be held captive by anger any more.

I know because I listen to New Life on the radio :). It’s a Christian call-in counseling show - it’s the most sane Christian teaching on these sorts of topics I’ve ever heard. If a caller is minimizing what was done to them the hosts don’t say “Wonderful - you’re being Christian and forgiving them!” They say - hey, why aren’t you angry about this? You should be angry!” Which is pretty cool, I think, for a Christian show.

Comment by: Rev. Dan

@Mike:

The book you suggested might not be for me for a number of reasons, but I’m taking the suggestion as "hey, Mike respects what I’m saying and is feeling some empathy for me." Thanks for caring enough to read what I’ve written and taking the effort to try to understand me, especially since we’re not on the same page. A dude couldn’t ask for more.

@Jason:

I’m not saying you’re perfect, I’m saying that I appreciate folks who prioritize their children. It’s responsible, and I like seeing it. You’re right that it’s wrong to pedestalize your kids but I’m throwin’ ya props for trying to be a good parent and understanding that you’re not always a "perfect" one. (Same goes all around… I’m a fan of good behavior, though I don’t always behave well myself.)

@Regarding Counseling:

I’ve been in and out of counseling and find that it’s all about whether or not you find somebody who works for you. Finding one that you respect enough to actually talk to is tough. It’s certainly been challenging for me. I’ve had good moments in counseling and I’ve had really destructive and damaging moments in counseling. Cue the long story:

My parents used to take me to family counseling when I was a kid. The whole situation was set up so that they could take the role of "helpless victimized parents" and they manipulated the rather stupid and unprofessional counselor into continuing to perpetuate their abuse. That dude screwed me more than once, but I ended up winning the war with the bad counselor. Since I knew anything and everything I said would be used against me, I didn’t say a word. Instead, I ran my thumbnail through the threaded grooves in my jeans. I remember the counselor yelling at me and wondering why God wasn’t saving me from the counselor. I figured that God wasn’t listening because I was a sinner. I had Mormon parents, they were going to Hell, and therefore I was going to Hell too. Apparently saying the prayer with Ms. Christian in the closet meant nothing to God, since I was so wicked-evil.

Family counseling could have been considered brilliant and cunning manipulation coupled with outstanding dramatic performances but by that point in time I think they’d honestly come to believe that I was hellspawn. Literally. According to what I understand to be their perspective, everything I did in life was calculated to give them misery. It was like I God’s judgement on them or something.

Parents: "Why Danny, why won’t you talk to us and tell us how you feel? We’re so worried about you, look what you’re doing to us!"

Adult Dan responds: "Uh, I’m not going to tell you how I feel ’cause you get off on my misery."

I’ve had a couple of good experiences with counselors/therapists as an adult and I’ve had a lot of worthless counseling. It’s all about who <em>works</em> for <b>you</b>.

I personally regard formal therapy as a waste of time, probably because I haven’t been able to afford the level of care that I need.

@Regarding Forgiveness:

Since I try to stick with what I know, I have nothing to say on this subject. ;) ;) ;)

@Regarding My Well-Being:

I’m writing this part purely because it has occurred to me that since there are cool, caring folks who are making the effort/taking the time to read what I’m writing that someone might be concerned for me in regards to my current general well-being, particularly since a lot of what I’m writing is pretty "heavy" or at least non-typical for comments on a blog. I promise you that I’m ok and that writing this stuff isn’t bringing me down or putting me in any dangerous position.

While I’m a little bit annoyed with myself for spending so much time writing epic-length blog comments because I’m not slinging code and bringing myself closer to releasing my software project, it’s been pretty cathartic.

I notice that every time I make a conscious decision to improve my life that tons of bullshit and dross rises up to try to smack me back down. I’ve been doing a lot better this round and have had some pretty amazing experiences in the past few weeks… I should probably write epic-length comments about them too.

This might sound arrogant but I’ve been feeling really proud of myself lately. It’s been a long time since I’ve even wanted to try enough to actually take a baby step forward. I’ve taken several recently and have netted some wins. It feels like a maintainable trajectory.

If all this is a result of someone praying for me, would you please consider asking that I be given the opportunity to be "independently wealthy?" ;) :) ;)

@Regarding Forgiveness:

I’m too tired to comment on this now, but I have a lot of thoughts/questions.

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Rev. Dan and Jason, my experience with professionally trained counselors (sorry Jason, in this case I like the American spelling) has been mixed. The atheist one was awful and the two Christian [professionally qualified] ones were good but this is too small a sample to draw conclusions from about faith and quality. The main reason the atheist was bad was, she was a psychoanalyst. Never again, now I know what psychoanalysis is.

Along with that I am very wary of Christians who take on counseling roles with no formal training. It’s very hit or miss whether they have acquired any counseling skills along the way. So I do agree with Jason’s concern about them. (Just not his spelling!)

I notice that every time I make a conscious decision to improve my life that tons of bullshit and dross rises up to try to smack me back down.

I think that happens to everyone who decides to move forward in their life instead of sticking with what doesn’t work well but has the ‘benefit of familiarity’.

I’ve been doing a lot better this round and have had some pretty amazing experiences in the past few weeks… I should probably write epic-length comments about them too.

That’s awesome. Could you email me an epic-length post about them (when you have time) and I’ll post it as its own post?

Part of the purpose of this blog is to give atheists space to share various aspects of what life is like as an atheist. I think a post about your recent experiences would fall well in line with that.

You’re also welcome to continue participating in all other conversations on here. It’s a both/and offer, not an either/or :)

Comment by: Mike O

As an aside “counsellor” is one of those words that Americans spell wrong. It might look strange to you but the fact is that I’m right in my spelling and the entire nation of 300 million Americans aren’t. OK? :)

At least we know how to spell ‘organization.’ The company I used to work for was based in York, UK and they constantly misspelled their ‘z’ (pronounced ‘zee’, not ‘zed’) words.

Comment by: Jason

Mike, bleedin’ foreigners ruinin’ the Queen’s English. The “z” is a recent invention, the “s” comes from the French….that might be the other way around. I’m easy either way and both seem to be in common usage in England. As long as you’re consistent it doesn’t matter too much. I’m not that pedantic. OK I am, but not that often.

Elizabeth, we’re all influenced by the behaviour of others. My own experience with Christians was largely negative until recent years. I found them to be condescending and judgmental as well as dismissive of questions. It’s hardly surprising that some atheists will react in a negative or antagonistic way. I know I did.

However a vocal negative minority shouldn’t necessarily tar all atheists (or Christians) with the same brush. A point that was finally drummed into my thick head by a Christian who showed humour and kindness to my obnoxious questioning. It doesn’t make me a Christian but it does make me a bit more tolerant to other views. Even when they’re wrong. ;)

You say that you have questions that are only answered by including faith in your life. For me it was the opposite. Faith blocked analysis of questions, it interfered with my understanding and muddled everything. Not including faith makes things so much clearer for me.

On the issue of the supernatural I have to say that the whole idea of there being any phenomena that cannot be explained by natural science is difficult for me to accept. That isn’t to say that there isn’t anything that currently does not have an explanation, that would be a lie. Just that claiming a supernatural cause before exhausting all possible natural causes just feels lazy to me.

Comment by: Rev. Dan

I enjoyed the bits of The God Delusion that I read though I didn’t read a whole bunch. I should find it in my pile and give it another go. Maybe we could discuss it here? :)

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Jason wrote:

My own experience with Christians was largely negative until recent years. I found them to be condescending and judgmental as well as dismissive of questions. It’s hardly surprising that some atheists will react in a negative or antagonistic way. I know I did.

However a vocal negative minority shouldn’t necessarily tar all atheists (or Christians) with the same brush. A point that was finally drummed into my thick head by a Christian who showed humour and kindness to my obnoxious questioning. It doesn’t make me a Christian but it does make me a bit more tolerant to other views. Even when they’re wrong. ;)

Jason was Bill the Christian?

Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin

Jason, fortunately my ex-boyfriend (who I almost married but now he dresses up as a Roman Soldier for Halloween out to capture Christians and feed them to the lions!) did not ruin my view of my fellow humans who have differing views from me, but his antagonism toward Christians certainly ruined our relationship. While I try to be tolerant of antagonistic extremists - it’s difficult to be with intolerant people regardless of their faith persuasion. I have quite a few friends of differing faith persuasions - some atheists, some Buddhists, some who take a little from here and a little from there, and some who are just having fun living life and don’t contemplate the nature of the universe much.

Jason, you said,

On the issue of the supernatural I have to say that the whole idea of there being any phenomena that cannot be explained by natural science is difficult for me to accept. That isn’t to say that there isn’t anything that currently does not have an explanation, that would be a lie. Just that claiming a supernatural cause before exhausting all possible natural causes just feels lazy to me.

I hear what you are saying here, though unfortunately I do not have the intelligence individually nor the research funds or other resources to exhaustively search out the source of all things yet unexplained in my world. And, in a sense, the term “supernatural” is inadequate. I believe in a creator who is involved relationally with the creation, and while there are still many things in the created universe that are a mystery to us, I do believe that with the advances of science we will discover and know many things that appear to be “supernatural” today. I also believe that science will lead more and more to the discovery of a creator and so I heartily support and invest in scientific exploration. I have a special interest in extra-terrestrial life as does my husband, so we contribute our computer time to the SETI project.

I’d love to read and discuss The God Delusion here, shall we set a time?

Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin

I hate that Internet Comment Eating Monster, you never know when the ICEM is going to invade a web page near you! I’m sure we all look forward to revision 2 and trust it will be sufficiently amusing and engaging. ;-)

Comment by: Ir (Helen)

Jason wrote:

Elizabeth, firstly Roman soldiers have very little to do with the Halloween feast so I don’t know why he’s dressing up and secondly: where did he get a lion? Don’t the animal control people notice him feeding people to it? Don’t the police have anything to say or is the lion really big?

Jason, Halloween is an amazingly elaborate affair over here - you have no idea!

Anyway, given your lack of resources to fathom out every answer to every question how can you ascribe God as the answer? Surely God is merely one of many possibilities?

I expect Elizabeth has personal experience she attributes to God which tips the balance in God’s favor. Christians usually have that along with thinking God is a plausible explanation for the way the universe is.

Comment by: Mike O

In my opinion, it’s a worthy field of study and I am considering researching brain activity and belief for my doctorate degree someday…

That would be interesting. I hope you’re studying somewhere that will take you seriously.