Posted by Jason on: 06.30.2008 /
On Thursday Mike wrote about the S.H.A.P.E workshop and heart\passion and gave a list of questions to try out to help us to extend out understanding of our own passions. The last question raised some difficulties for me.
Write down the ten most wonderful things God could do with you, for you, through you, and in you, for the rest of your life? The dreams or desires that you have always wanted to pursue. Don’t limit your list by any obstacle or circumstance such as education, finances, location, gender, or age.
Not only do I not believe in God or gods on any kind but should a humble and loving Christian really be asking for things from God? Even if the things he or she asks for are to benefit others. Isn’t it part of the Christian ideal to accept with grace the trials and tribulations of life? Doesn’t asking for something imply that the divine plan is somehow flawed and in need of correction?
If I did believe in God, the god of the New Testament transformed and reinvented from the Old Testament, then I think I’d have to accept that God had already done everything for me. I say everything because God the Creator is responsible for everything, quite literally. If I believed that then asking for more, anything more, would feel disrespectful somehow. It is as if I were saying, “Look at this wonderful world we have, food enough for everyone, more knowledge than any one person could hope to learn, shelter and warmth for all, companionship and love in abundance. Truly it is an awe inspiring wonder. Now, can I just have a little more money.” I don’t know, maybe Christians accept that and believe that God sees their pleas in a positive light.
Now, as an atheist, I do not believe that there is a god who made the world. I don’t believe that our wishes, thoughts or prayers can change anything in the world. It is only action that changes things. If I want to transform my life in some way or pursue a dream then I must follow that path. Asking that someone or something else take those steps for me means, to me, that I am not actually doing anything myself. Transforming some part of my life requires effort on my part. If I want to pass an exam I need to learn the subject, if I want to get rich then I need to work to earn money and spend what I have wisely.
I hope I haven’t just insulted every Christian who believes that their prayers are answered but I don’t think that they are. More than that, I don’t think that they deserve to be. Not while the world has such injustice and inequality in it. When we, the human race, make the world a better place for everyone on it then maybe we can indulge ourselves.
Comment by: One Episcopalian
1Not insulted at all. Understand. Merely disagree. Thanks for a thought provoking post.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
2Right. I think the survey writers intended their survey to further that process too.
I think maybe you’re misconstruing what the survey question you quoted is getting at.
The survey is to help people identify what they’re good at and love to do so that they’ll understand the most effective way for them to make the world a better place
I realize the question is ambiguous - out of context it could be interpreted as “What goals do you have for yourself?” But it’s not out of context when it’s done at Mike’s church - because all the people taking the class already know a Christian survey wouldn’t be asking people to describe selfish goals. Because Christians don’t ask each other to do that sort of thing. They know they’re supposed to be following Jesus in serving others.
That’s my take on it anyhow. Mike feel free to correct me if I’m wrong about the survey!
Comment by: Jason
3One Episcopalian, I like “disagree”. Can you tell me how and why though.
Helen, the survey question was the start of my thought process that got me on the the path of wondering how Christians view divine intervention. I may well be taking it out of context but I’m OK with that really. ;)
I’m also OK with people wanting to make the world a better place. I share the same goal in my own way and I think we all do. It’s just the idea of beseeching a supernatural being to make those changes that I don’t like. It seems wasteful when you could be doing something yourself. In the time it takes to pray for something like a stop sign at the end of your street you could write to your town council and ask for one. It’s that thinking that concerns me.
Does that make sense at all or am I just being picky?
Comment by: Stephan
4Jason, I would say two things in response. First, I disagree with you when you say:
While I agree that God is the prime mover, I believe that free will has a lot to do with it. To hold God responsible is like holding parents responsible for the actions of their adult children. Sure, they are responsible for that person existing, and they have had an influence on their decisions throughout their life, but you would stop short of holding them responsible. I have found almost universally that atheists I have engaged online have a distorted view of free will and how it relates to God.
Second, and probably more to the point, I don’t think this question was a license to ask God for any petty little thing you want. It was a way of determining what it is a person truly is passionate about. If you would really ask God for more money as part of your top ten, I think there are some serious problem with priorities, and that would probably be discussed in the class.
Comment by: Pseudonym
5I occasionally read supermarket women’s-interest celebrity gossip tabloid magazines.
A few years ago, there was an “Ask a Wiccan”-type column. The columnist gave a spell for making up with a friend that you’ve fallen out with. The spell went something like this (and it’s from a vague memory, so sorry if I’ve gotten some of the steps wrong, just in case you wanted to reproduce it):
1. Write your friend’s name on a piece of black-edged parchment using a quill.
2. Roll the parchment with a stick of cinnamon, and tie it with a red ribbon.
3. Light a rose-scented soy candle.
4. Wave the parchment over the flame three times, saying some rhyme or other.
5. Light the parchment, and wait for it to burn completely.
6. Call your friend and apologise.
Now, I know what you’re all thinking. Step six seems a bit weird, right?
Seriously, this seems to me to follow a theme. In my scientific work, we do research with training elite athletes (Olympic-level). There is a whole field (which I don’t do) called “sports psychology”, which involves all of the mental preparation that athletes are taught and encouraged to do before their events.
Our wishes, thoughts and prayers may not change the world, but they do change the person wishing, thinking and praying. Then that person changes the world.
If you truly believe it, praying for personal strength in a task that you must do is a prayer that is almost always answered.
Comment by: Jason
6Stephan, in many ways parents are responsible for the actions of their children. They provide the biological basis and the environment to nurture the child. Oh, I don’t think that this is entirely conscious as parents are as much influenced by their own background as their children. Theoretically an omnipotent and omniscient god wouldn’t have these human limitations and would have a much greater degree of responsibility for the actions of his creations.
I do think that we’re using the term “responsible” differently here. If I provide an environment to raise my children in then I am responsible for how that influences them. I’m not responsible for what they make of that influence.
On the matter of free will I can’t comment on how it relates to God because I don’t believe that God has anything to do with my decisions. If God did create everything and knows everything including the ability to get around Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle then he’d be able to predict every action and change those outcomes by changing a factor in any decision. God would nullify freedom of action by his very existence. Is that the skewed view you were talking about?
On the other hand I already believe that this greater form of free will is non-existent. Instead I subscribe to the idea of a lesser form of free will that is compatible with determinism. In this view the existence of omnipotent and omniscient deity is irrelevant.
Pseudonym, so step one to five were just preparation for step 6. I like that but why not tell them that? In order to prepare for a task it is helpful to prepare mentally by using this ritual.
Actually I have a friend in Orlando who runs a New Age\Wicca shop who would probably go out of business if it weren’t for advice like that women’s magazine. I’m sure she sells lots of scented candles and not just to people who like the smell. She even does a weekly Tarot reading for the
gullibleinterested patron.I view the rituals as non sequiturs to the final action but I suppose anything that prompts or helps people to take positive action can be beneficial. It’s when the rituals replace the action that I become concerned.
Comment by: Stephan
7Yeah, that’s about it. Most atheists seem to think that God and free will are mutually exclusive.
I’m not sure where I stand on the physiological idea of free will. Some science points to the possibility that we are “moist robots” and that our physiology determines our actions, probably similar to your determinist ideas. I like to think we’re more than that, but I could be wrong. It’s happened before.
When I use the term “responsible” I am speaking more in a legal sense of the term. Some atheists I have chatted with would indict God for all of mankind’s crimes (if they believed He existed). But we do not hold a parent legally responsible for an adult child’s crimes. We may point to their upbringing as a factor in their behavior, but we do not lock up the parents when the offspring commits a crime (unless the parent is directly involved in some way).
Comment by: Jason
8I think it more accurate to say that omniscience removed unpredictability. If you know everything then you can’t be surprised. That means that people can’t surprise you or act in anything but they way that has been predicted by the omniscient being. Of course, omniscience is something that we’ve called God so perhaps it’s an unfair label. It’s one of those absolutes that I dislike because it spoils perfectly good ideas.
Of course to the super smart observer the moist robotic humans are boringly predictable but to the human being their decisions are entirely free. It’s just a matter of perspective. As I said I personally subscribe to the lesser free will idea where we are free to act within the bounds of our physical, mental and emotional limits and experiences.
I’m not sure about the US but in England we hold a parent legally responsible for a child’s crimes until the child is aged 9 or more. After this point the child is deemed to be aware of “right” and “wrong” and may be punished appropriately.
On the religious view though I think it’s fine not to hold a deity responsible for the bad things that happen as long as you don’t hold the same deity responsible for the good things that happen. If God makes you pass a test then God also makes you fail it. Yet if God allows you to take the test and pass or fail on your own merits then he cannot take the credit or blame for the result. If that is the case then asking is a waste of effort on the part of the petitioner.
Comment by: Mike O
9Last week was my first week back to work, so I didn’t get out here to read this until just a couple days ago. I’ll try to not let this post become too Rev-Danesque in it’s length ;)
I don’t see why not. When one of your kids asks for something, does it show some lack of faith in your ability to provide? WOuld you, as a father, like it if your kids NEVER asked for anything? Of course not. There’s a dependance there, and a trust (hopefully), but also a reliance upon you for the final outcome. I think it’s the same with God. Yes, he has a plan, blah blah blah. But at the same time, I think he finds pleasure in the exchange. I think he likes when we come to him for things.
I think at some level there’s a mix of the soveriegnty of God (what God intends to happen will happen) and also some sort of open-endedness to it all. Take my job for example. I don’t know if there was “one right job” for me and I got it, or if there were a myriad of choices, any of which would have been OK with him. All I know is that I got one, and this is the one I’m happy to have.
You’re taking a more self-absorbed approach to it than intended. You’re seeing the Christian as the purpose of God’s gifts - it’s FOR the Christian. But the way it’s supposed to work is as a sort of flow. Christians believe we are here to do God’s work, whatever that is. And while we’re here, money makes the world go ’round, so we need soem of that, too. But the purpose of getting money shouldn’t be to acquire more, but to do more with it - for God. That’s my paradigm, anyway.
There needs to be a balance. Pretty much everything you said is true - I must follow that path; requires effort on my part; I need to learn the subject, etc. All true statements. But just because you go to someone (God) for help, that doesn’t mean you’re asking him to do it for you, rather you’re asking him to help you do it. It’s like the difference between paying a friend to take a test for you, and paying a tutor to help you study. The intent isn’t to get God to take steps for you - it’s to rely on God to clear the path so you can take the steps you need to take. The Lord helps those who help themselves.
I don’t think you offended any Christians here. The whole point of me posting that was to help atheists understand how Christians think. There’s more to it than just “Praise Jesus, I’m saved - let me turn my brain off.” “Praise Jesus” is part of it, though. I’m sure you understand.
And none of this is about indulging ourselves. it’s about trying to figure out how to make the most out of who we are - who God made us to be, in Christianese. We all have faults, idiosyncrasies, quirks, memories, etc. that make us who we are. And given all of that, how can we be the most effective human beings we can be? Christians would say, “How can God best use me the way I am?” That’s a good question for people who believe in God to ask. Even if there is no God, the result of that line of thinking should help make the world a better place.
In post #2, Helen made some cmments. You nailed it, Helen.
Jason, I think where you’re getting stuck is on the phrase “what could God do FOR me.” When I mentioned this conversation to my wife, she was actually surprised that she had that in there because it does go against the general flow of the question. It’s not about what God can do for me, it’s about what I can do for God. What is it about me that God can use - just the way I am?
As always, I realize the majority here don’t believe in God - that’s not the point. My intent is simply to relay the information we’re being given, and the information we’re using does include God.
In #3, Jason said,
We’re not beseeching God instead of doing something. We’re beseeching God and doing something. If there is a God, and we believe there is, we would rather make the world a better place with Him than without Him. It’s a matter of being alligned with his purposes - assuming He even exists, right? We believe He exists and he cares what we do, so we want to line up with what God wants. That’s all.
Stephan said in #4
It didn’t come up, but given what I’ve seen so far, what would have happened is that person would have been asked why God would want them to have all that money, and what God would want them to do with it. The people in the class are there because they want to do the right thing by God. It would have been a good discussion, had it happened.
Pseudonym, I wasn’t sure where you were going with the Wiccan spell, but I liked the conlcusion you came to …
Jason said in #6,
Me, too. I do think the church at large is guilty of this. But there is a move to change that. The pendulum has swung too far in the direction of ritual, and I think/hope that it is beginning to swing back to a more balanced view of ritual enhancing action rather than replacing it.
This was actually my first theological crisis when I was 17. I saw examples of God changing his mind, regretting things he had done, etc. How could a God who knew what would happen “regret” what happened?
I wish I had a better answer , but for me it’s OK to not completely understand every aspect of God. I don’t know how omniscience fits in with free will. But I suspect it has something to do with there being a grand plan to it all, but the details are still up for grabs. There are a LOT of moving parts, and I think somehow that’s where the free will lies. But when all is said and done, things will have generally gone as planned.
I agree with everything except the last sentence. It’s a matter of being alligned with someone we choose to revere.
Comment by: Jason
10I prefer it when they show me what they have done for themselves. To be honest it can be irritating when they try to get me to do something that they are perfectly capable of doing and have done before. I have a special “Dad face” that I use for these situations.
When you say “for God” do you mean “for the betterment of all”? Are they one and the same to you? I suspect that this is the case.
Are you saying that prayer is acting as a focusing method? A way to meditate and clear away the distractions? I think that you are to an extent but that you see more to it than that.
I can’t fault you for that way of thinking. It is perfectly compatible with my atheistic view of living a good life and if there does turn out to be a god of any kind then I may be credited with the good that I’ve done even if I failed to believe.
Comment by: Mike O
11I know the one!
Yes - I’m purposely using Christianese because that’s what the class is about - doing things with “God’s intent” in mind. But yeah, same thing.
Yeah, there’s more to it than that. Seeing as I believe there really is a God, and he is a “force” better worked with than ignored, you could almost think of it as trying to gain direction/approval for your actions. But I say that with the intent that you need to act, not sit around paralyzed by confusion. If you don’t know what God wants, do what you think is right. That’s my opinion, anyway.
Comment by: Jason
12I’m so gonna do this…um…keep doing this. :)
Comment by: Mike O
13Rock on!