Posted by Bill Cecchini on: 11.06.2008 /
Walking back to my car from an extended visit to the mall tonight, my eyes were drawn to the vehicle parked adjacent to my sweet black Kia. This car was tattooed with [Old Testament] bible verses talking about God’s wrath, judgment, and hell.
I couldn’t help but laugh in disgust.
Thirty minutes prior, I sat in Books A Million reading the first chapter of A.J. Jacob’s popular book The Year of Living Biblically: One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible, a story about one man’s attempt to, well, follow the bible as literally as possible for…yep, a year. Cleverly titled, eh?
When asked if he is now more religious after doing his best to follow all of the “rules” of the bible for an entire year, the author responded, “Well, I don’t want to give away the ending, but let’s say I started the year as an agnostic, and now I am a reverent agnostic. Whether or not there is a God, I believe in sacredness. Rituals can be sacred, the Sabbath can be sacred however you choose to observe it.”
I
haven’t read the book in it’s entirety (although I’d like to!), but are you as equally unsurprised as I am that his answer wasn’t an astounding, “heck yes! I love Jesus and live to make his holy name famous!”
What I’m about to say doesn’t make me popular with some groups of Christians (thankfully, I don’t live one second of my life for anybody but God):
A big thank you to our good friend Helen for inviting me to contribute to this great site for a short amount of time. I am humbled by her offer and excited to meet you guys! Please forgive the lengthy introduction. Next week’s post will be shorter and hopefully a bit more enjoyable :-)
You can read more about me at FriendlyChristian.com and JustBill.org.
PS - OH, and before I forget, please forgive me as my comments/responses will be few and far between. An attempt to get into PA school is currently consuming the time that I would usually dedicate to blogging.
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Comment by: Jason
2Hey Bill. It’s good to see you here while Mike is so busy. Maybe when he has more time the three of us can post here. ;)
A.J Jacobs’ book is on a rather long list of things that I intend to read. I’ve seen some extracts though and was quite amused by one story of how he felt compelled to stone someone for a biblical crime and so asked politely if he could throw a pebble at him. The confused bystander let him but it must have been strange.
It’s your belief but for me this is an untestable assertion. It doesn’t hurt though unlike the God Hates Fags thing you mention later.
Didn’t Jesus say that he wasn’t destroying the old law but fulfilling it? Doesn’t that leave the OT law in place? Even the cruel parts?
Reciprocity is a common theme in religion and many forms of human social structure. We serve others and it helps ourselves. It is therefore a good idea to share and be trustworthy. As you know I see no reason for a deity to come into that equation at all.
I’m glad about that. No-one wants to be threatened with hellfire and a lack of quality TV in the afterlife but how do you know what God wants? Perhaps God does want our fear and obedience. You could certainly find passages in scripture to show that he does along with those that say he doesn’t.
He loves the sinner but hates the sin, eh? How do you separate a sinner from their sin? If I kill someone then this is my sin, I’m a killer whether I’m loved or not and will be condemned for my crime.
If there is nothing you can do to get into heaven then why do anything good? Where is your incentive to help others? This is a turnabout on the old adage that atheists have no reason to do good because we don’t have the carrot of heaven and stick of hell to encourage us.
A lot of people do. There are several site that share deconversion stories that show how much happier people are after rejecting religion. It’s a choice I feel that many people get to make. If faith makes you a happier, better adjusted person then great but if it makes you miserable then what’s the point?
There are only about 700 rules. I’m sure I’ve said a thousand times that you shouldn’t exaggerate. :) Living every day to the best of your ability should be in every schoolroom in the world. Nobody’s expectations for yourself should be higher than your own and you should be encouraged to be the very best person that you can be. We learn our limitations. Some people never try to push theirs while others just discard them. If faith helps you then so much for the better, it shouldn’t hold you back.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
3Thanks for posting, Bill!
What’s PA school?
Comment by: Jason
4Bill,
Awesome to see you posting here. I agree with a lot of what you have to say. I heard an interview by A.J. Jacobs, and was saddened that not only did he miss the point of the God’s Moral Law, but also the beauty of what Christ did to the law. Every one of us is accountable for the millions upon millions of sins we have committed. But Christ by his life, death and resurrection has already fulfilled the law for those who receive that gift of grace. And for the rest, well God’s wrath still abides on them because instead of receiving the gift of grace and mercy they have scoffed at God again and said “I will do this on my own apart from you” or “There is no You in the first place and I only answer to myself and those around me for the choices I make.” Either way, it is sad to see how blinding the power of sin is.
That is why I find it very troubling when Christians only talk about one aspect of God’s character. I don’t like the Freddy Phelps version of God. But I don’t despise it anymore than I do the Joel Osteen version either. They both have done extreme damage to the truth that we find in the scripture.
Here’s what I’m saying: In John 3:36 it tells us that those who believe in the Son have life, but those who do not believe in the Son do not have life and God’s wrath abides on them.
You Said:
I think we are doing the non-believing world a serious disservice with either of the statements wrapped up in your comment. God may love the world (homosexuals, drunks, speeders, liars, adulterers, and murderers) but because he is also JUST he will punish those sinners eternally in hell if they refuse to repent, turn away from their sins, and accept the sacrifice of Jesus’ death on the cross as payment for their sins. Isn’t this message just as important as the love of God?
Yikes, harsh huh? Not a very sell-able Gospel? The truth is that some things in the Bible don’t seem to resonate with the world in a very tactful or tasteful way, but they are truth and they are found in the scripture which has the power to soften and break a heart that is hard towards God. What we need to understand is that it is not our place to force, trick, convince, deceive, manipulate or scare people into conversion. True conversion can come by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why as Christians it is our job to preach Christ and Him crucified and then allow the power of that message to break the hearts of those whom God has already prepared to receive it.
Not a sermon, just a thought. But one that I think we must give serious consideration to. I love you bud and thank God for the wonderful things He is doing in and through your life.
For His Glory,
Jason
Comment by: Mike O
5This kind of goes back to what I was talking about when I posted on bounded set vs centered set Christianity
It’s great to have you, Bill. And I’m with Helen … what’s PA school?
Comment by: Mike O
6Uh-oh … we’ve got two Jasons. This could get confusing.
To “the christian Jason’s” point, I actually just started going through the New Testament (I’m only up to Matthew 8) looking for and documenting *all* references to hell - who goes there and what is it? My thinking is similar to yours - if we believe the whole bible is true, we’ve got to pay attention to the whole thing, not just the happy parts.
Comment by: Bill Cecchini
7Oops, sorry guys! PA school = Physician Assistant school.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
8Thanks for explaining PA school, Bill.
Comment by: Jason
9Jason (not me, the Christian one) had some interesting points.
I disagree that I reject God’s grace because I am filled with sin. I’m sure that such a powerful force could, if the stories I hear are true, make me see and purge me of sin. As I don’t see anything that would cause me to believe I have to conclude that there is either no God or that I have been singled out to be condemned for some reason.
I’d rather have someone who believed in The Sermon on Mount and used this as inspiration for living than someone who followed the vengeful God idea. I do despise the Fred Phelps philosophy of religion. It is divisive and insulting to everyone who doesn’t hold the same view. It’s single saving grace is that it turns people away from their kind of thinking.
Where is the justice in condemning someone to hell because they failed to believe in God? Perhaps they were raised in a part of the world where the message hasn’t reached? Perhaps they were raised in another faith? Perhaps they lived according to Christian faith but were born gay? It seems unfair to condemn someone because of the circumstances of their birth does it not?
Ah, not that I can agree with.
Comment by: Jason
10Jason (the other one):
First:
I think you missed my point on the Freddy Phelps version of ‘Christianity’. I might have you wrong, but the way you chopped and cut my comment leads me to believe that you don’t think I have a problem with the Westboro Baptist Church version of evangelism. I do, but I don’t hate it anymore than I hate the Lakewood Church version. They are both biblically inaccurate. So to clarify, I detest both A LOT!
Secondly, you asked:
No one goes to hell for not believing in God. Actually no one goes to heaven for simply believing in him either. The only thing that can send anyone to hell is SIN. Sin is what has cursed man and separated us from the Glory and presence of God. And the only thing that can get anyone into heaven is recognition of what Jesus did for us on the cross, and why he had to do it. Our sins must be covered by the blood of Christ because God demands justice for sin. What we have to do is repent of our sin and put our faith in what Christ did on our behalf…Otherwise, we are on our own and we are basically telling God we’ll pay for our own unrighteousness. It’s not simply about belief in God, but instead it is about atonement and Jesus is our atonement. (See Romans 3:21-26 if you want a better explanation of what I am talking about.)
So, the eternal nature of hell is JUST because God is infinitely righteous. And a sin is infinitely unrighteous. Therefore, sin against an infinitely righteous God demands a punishment of equal value in order to be considered just.
The being born “gay” statement you made is a bit of a stretch for me, so I’ll leave that one alone. I don’t think there is any scientific proof that anyone is born gay…however, I do believe we are all born sinners if that is what you mean by that statement.
Jason (the other one)
Comment by: Jason
11Christian Jason, I saw you as disliking Westboro Baptist Church and their litany of homophobic hate but to an equal level to your dislike of Lakewood Church’s focus. Perhaps the fact that Osteen chooses not to focus on “sin” but on how to improve the lives of people makes him the same as Phelps who does the opposite. I don’t know?
As for consignment to hell I’m confused by what you’ve said. I don’t get to go to hell for not believing in God but the only way to avoid it is to recognise Jesus and his sacrifice. Doesn’t that involve some sort of belief?
Repenting sin seems to be a straightforward idea. It is essentially the idea that you live a good life and make up for your mistakes. I can back such an approach. What I can’t condone is coating this in the idea of a blood sacrifice which was very much a cultural idea of the times and pretty horrible when you think about it. I also see no reason to defer my morality to a third party. I have a well developed set of morals that I don’t want to reduce by blindly following someone from an ancient book or a church.
Falling short of the Glory of God is an irrelevant distraction. I don’t believe in God or the Glory of God. Comparing my own actions to such without some defined parameters is a waste of time. I could say that I already exceed or can never reach this state.
I think that you are confusing the meaning of infinite here. Infinite is not merely something that is inconceivably large. Infinity is literally something without bounds. Justice, by it’s very definition is bounded by rules. X is wrong, Y is right, Z is acceptable under the circumstances. Justice is about providing a proportional punishment, retribution and restitution for the crime or moral lapse. It is not about punishing the slightest mistake with a completely disproportional punishment. I call hell a disproportional punishment. I’ll write about hell for Monday and explain further.
As for people being born gay I refer you to these studies:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519
http://www.livescience.com/health/080617-hereditary-homosexuality.html
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6612
http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/3641
As for being born sinners I’m afraid I just can’t see that. I don’t know if you have any kids but how can you look upon a newborn and think that it is anything other than innocent? A baby hasn’t had the opportunity to learn any wrong or even what right and wrong are. I refer you to something I wrote a few weeks ago here.
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