Hey, I don’t know this God, Jason! He sounds a bit like the one you believe in, the one you wrote about recently in your post on ‘Hellfire and Damnation’, the post that I said, in response, was a major distortion of the overall Biblical picture on this topic.
I understand your point Chris but this cartoon satirises a common interpretation of the Christian God. The fact that your own beliefs differ doesn’t mean that some people don’t retain this simplistic overview of your god.
Besides which I thought it was funny, especially the bit about the crushed skull and miracle.
I know Edward Current picks up on negative stereotypes of God and Christians but I admit I find his videos quite entertaining and he is good at noticing some of the more silly and inconsistent things some Christians say.
Well we all say and do silly things, at least I know I do. However, I question whether we should continue to re-run slightly different formats of the same silliness on the same forum, especially when most of those posting recognise what a distortion this view presents of a serious and grave subject (pun intended, just to keep things a little silly).
I think part of the problem is that Christians ignore this facet of God - judgement, jealosy, etc - and portray him as *only* loving. Which he IS! But all this stuff that people keep throwing back at us about things that he actually did in the OLD testament, rather than just sying “that isn’t the God I believe in” or brushing it aside as so much misinformation, we need to do a better job of UNDERSTANDING it.
One of my favorite passages from the Old Testament that I think does a good job of combining the love and the justice of God is Hosea Chapter 2.
I’ll highlight the “love” parts, but to me, this shows how God’s primary motivator is love. Yes, there are other aspects to his character but the main thing that drives him is love, not anger.
1 “Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’
Israel Punished and Restored
2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.
Let her remove the adulterous look from her face
and the unfaithfulness from between her breasts.
3 Otherwise I will strip her naked
and make her as bare as on the day she was born;
I will make her like a desert,
turn her into a parched land,
and slay her with thirst.
4 I will not show my love to her children,
because they are the children of adultery.
5 Their mother has been unfaithful
and has conceived them in disgrace.
She said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
who give me my food and my water,
my wool and my linen, my oil and my drink.’
6 Therefore I will block her path with thornbushes;
I will wall her in so that she cannot find her way.
7 She will chase after her lovers but not catch them;
she will look for them but not find them.
Then she will say,
‘I will go back to my husband as at first,
for then I was better off than now.’
8 She has not acknowledged that I was the one
who gave her the grain, the new wine and oil,
who lavished on her the silver and gold—
which they used for Baal.
9 “Therefore I will take away my grain when it ripens,
and my new wine when it is ready.
I will take back my wool and my linen, intended to cover her nakedness.
10 So now I will expose her lewdness
before the eyes of her lovers;
no one will take her out of my hands.
11 I will stop all her celebrations:
her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
her Sabbath days—all her appointed feasts.
12 I will ruin her vines and her fig trees,
which she said were her pay from her lovers;
I will make them a thicket,
and wild animals will devour them.
13 I will punish her for the days
she burned incense to the Baals;
she decked herself with rings and jewelry,
and went after her lovers,
but me she forgot,”
declares the LORD.
14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the desert
and speak tenderly to her.
15 There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor [a] a door of hope.
There she will sing [b] as in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.
16 “In that day,” declares the LORD,
“you will call me ‘my husband’;
you will no longer call me ‘my master. [c] ‘
17 I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips;
no longer will their names be invoked.
18 In that day I will make a covenant for them
with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air
and the creatures that move along the ground.
Bow and sword and battle
I will abolish from the land,
so that all may lie down in safety.
19 I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you in [d] righteousness and justice,
in [e] love and compassion.
20 I will betroth you in faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the LORD.
21 “In that day I will respond,”
declares the LORD—
“I will respond to the skies,
and they will respond to the earth;
22 and the earth will respond to the grain,
the new wine and oil,
and they will respond to Jezreel. [f]
23 I will plant her for myself in the land;
I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one. [g] ‘
I will say to those called ‘Not my people, [h] ‘ ‘You are my people’;
and they will say, ‘You are my God.’ “
Chris, is the “grave subject” death or God’s judgment? I ask because we can use humour to remove some of the sting of death.
The satire of God’s judgment is something I can also laugh at. I certainly don’t take it seriously. I’m not going to hell, after all and heaven isn’t any more real to me than a cartoon man in the clouds. The blustering, the weak answers, the pomposity, these are all caricatures of how many people see God. Another caricature is Jesus-as-hippy who is all about love and Beatles music. These caricatures take a single aspect of popular belief and enlarge it because, you know, that’s what a caricature is.
The strength of Christianity is that it has something for everyone. If you fear death it has the promise of an afterlife. If you hate The Gay, the unmarried, the sexually non-conformist, etc then it has condemnation for those lifestyles. If you want a traditional nuclear family then you gain support for that view in the bible. If you want peace and love for all mankind then it’s all there just as holy war is there too. All you have to do is read selectively to be “saved” and your views vindicated by divine mandate.
The strength of Christianity is that it has something for everyone. All you have to do is read selectively to be “saved” and your views vindicated by divine mandate.
Jason, if you ‘read selectively’, rather than follow the thrust of scripture, you can find support, or condemnation, for many things, as you could with the writings of all worldviews. But, as I’ve said several times now, this isn’t anything to do with Christianity or being a Christian. Those who select to suit themselves, in the way you suggest, are simply expressing the original sin of self-focus (rather than having a God focus): it’s the very opposite of following Jesus. It’s actually much closer to the way ‘New Age’ spirituality is practiced.
The strength of Christianity comes from the very real power and love of God coming into the lives of individual Christians and giving them the fortitude to do better at following what, in essence, is a sacrificial call: all of it, not just the bits they fancy.
The strength of Christianity comes from the very real power and love of God coming into the lives of individual Christians and giving them the fortitude to do better at following what, in essence, is a sacrificial call: all of it, not just the bits they fancy.
Christianity, the religion (or should I say religions), has something that appeals to everyone. The structure, the interpretation of scripture, the idea that “we” are better than “them” all have an appeal and the bible allows for that.
What you are talking about is something that transcends the religion and focuses directly on the faith of an individual. That isn’t the appeal of the Christian religion but of faith in the Christian message. Many people are rejecting religion in favour of spirituality precisely because the religion is preventing them from connecting to that faith.
The doctrine of hell and divine punishment comes from religion, particularly the Catholic church in centuries past. That comes from a few phrases in scripture which, in turn, comes from an idea that the guilty shouldn’t escape punishment. Our righteous indignation that we feel when cheated has been taken and molded by religion and used as a tool to convert and retain followers.
Religion and faith in this regard are not very close. Some religions hold to dogma more than the positive idea of living a life of service to your fellow.
What you are talking about is something that transcends the religion and focuses directly on the faith of an individual. That isn’t the appeal of the Christian religion but of faith in the Christian message. Some religions hold to dogma more than the positive idea of living a life of service to your fellow.
In general I very much agree with this, but would just wish to qualify it slightly. The appeal of the faith is both the logic of the Biblical Christian message and then experiencing the truth of it as it’s worked out. So it follows from this that ‘service to your fellow’ is both Christian dogma and practise, but only part of it. It’s also Christian dogma and experience that loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind makes the outworking of the faith more achievable.
Comment by: Chris C
1Hey, I don’t know this God, Jason! He sounds a bit like the one you believe in, the one you wrote about recently in your post on ‘Hellfire and Damnation’, the post that I said, in response, was a major distortion of the overall Biblical picture on this topic.
Comment by: Jason
2I understand your point Chris but this cartoon satirises a common interpretation of the Christian God. The fact that your own beliefs differ doesn’t mean that some people don’t retain this simplistic overview of your god.
Besides which I thought it was funny, especially the bit about the crushed skull and miracle.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
3I know Edward Current picks up on negative stereotypes of God and Christians but I admit I find his videos quite entertaining and he is good at noticing some of the more silly and inconsistent things some Christians say.
Comment by: Chris C
4Well we all say and do silly things, at least I know I do. However, I question whether we should continue to re-run slightly different formats of the same silliness on the same forum, especially when most of those posting recognise what a distortion this view presents of a serious and grave subject (pun intended, just to keep things a little silly).
Comment by: Mike O
5I think part of the problem is that Christians ignore this facet of God - judgement, jealosy, etc - and portray him as *only* loving. Which he IS! But all this stuff that people keep throwing back at us about things that he actually did in the OLD testament, rather than just sying “that isn’t the God I believe in” or brushing it aside as so much misinformation, we need to do a better job of UNDERSTANDING it.
One of my favorite passages from the Old Testament that I think does a good job of combining the love and the justice of God is Hosea Chapter 2.
I’ll highlight the “love” parts, but to me, this shows how God’s primary motivator is love. Yes, there are other aspects to his character but the main thing that drives him is love, not anger.
Comment by: God’s Judgment | All Reason
6 11/23/08 5:16 PM | Comment Link |[...] ..Real Full Article [...]
Comment by: Jason
7Chris, is the “grave subject” death or God’s judgment? I ask because we can use humour to remove some of the sting of death.
The satire of God’s judgment is something I can also laugh at. I certainly don’t take it seriously. I’m not going to hell, after all and heaven isn’t any more real to me than a cartoon man in the clouds. The blustering, the weak answers, the pomposity, these are all caricatures of how many people see God. Another caricature is Jesus-as-hippy who is all about love and Beatles music. These caricatures take a single aspect of popular belief and enlarge it because, you know, that’s what a caricature is.
The strength of Christianity is that it has something for everyone. If you fear death it has the promise of an afterlife. If you hate The Gay, the unmarried, the sexually non-conformist, etc then it has condemnation for those lifestyles. If you want a traditional nuclear family then you gain support for that view in the bible. If you want peace and love for all mankind then it’s all there just as holy war is there too. All you have to do is read selectively to be “saved” and your views vindicated by divine mandate.
Comment by: Chris C
8Jason says.
Jason, if you ‘read selectively’, rather than follow the thrust of scripture, you can find support, or condemnation, for many things, as you could with the writings of all worldviews. But, as I’ve said several times now, this isn’t anything to do with Christianity or being a Christian. Those who select to suit themselves, in the way you suggest, are simply expressing the original sin of self-focus (rather than having a God focus): it’s the very opposite of following Jesus. It’s actually much closer to the way ‘New Age’ spirituality is practiced.
The strength of Christianity comes from the very real power and love of God coming into the lives of individual Christians and giving them the fortitude to do better at following what, in essence, is a sacrificial call: all of it, not just the bits they fancy.
Comment by: Jason
9Chris said:
Christianity, the religion (or should I say religions), has something that appeals to everyone. The structure, the interpretation of scripture, the idea that “we” are better than “them” all have an appeal and the bible allows for that.
What you are talking about is something that transcends the religion and focuses directly on the faith of an individual. That isn’t the appeal of the Christian religion but of faith in the Christian message. Many people are rejecting religion in favour of spirituality precisely because the religion is preventing them from connecting to that faith.
The doctrine of hell and divine punishment comes from religion, particularly the Catholic church in centuries past. That comes from a few phrases in scripture which, in turn, comes from an idea that the guilty shouldn’t escape punishment. Our righteous indignation that we feel when cheated has been taken and molded by religion and used as a tool to convert and retain followers.
Religion and faith in this regard are not very close. Some religions hold to dogma more than the positive idea of living a life of service to your fellow.
Comment by: Chris C
10Jason said
In general I very much agree with this, but would just wish to qualify it slightly. The appeal of the faith is both the logic of the Biblical Christian message and then experiencing the truth of it as it’s worked out. So it follows from this that ‘service to your fellow’ is both Christian dogma and practise, but only part of it. It’s also Christian dogma and experience that loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind makes the outworking of the faith more achievable.